Tutorial Saurus Warriors.. The tactica?!

[Mr Phat]

Those pointy ears will get what's coming to them!

OR rather : They will LOSE what CAME to them.

BYE BYE RE-ROLLS!

 

[Bainbow]

Well they say that we learn more from our defeats than we do from our victories. Any strategies brewing on how you will beat them next time?

Oh definitely. Notably outside of magic, he had no ranged capability what so ever. So I could hold back, putting as much space between our armies as I can, and wait for him to come to me while my Salamanders and Chameleons harass him. However it was his Loremaster of Hoeth who won him the game by combining spells from across the lores to lower my To Hit from 3 to 6. Not only can I steal that and use it in all games with Khaine magic and do it better as my Slann is level 4 unlike the Loremaster who is level 2, I can also use my flying Skink to try to snipe his Loremaster using the Lore of Death and Arcane Vassal, preventing him from also doing it. With his primary magic support gone, I will be able to beat him in a straight up fight, especially with my Slann able to use Meteoric Ironclad which I maintain is the single best support spell in the game. Though ultimately what lost me the game was how I let him isolate and kill my Salamanders and Stegadon, this was a problem that I realised I had made as early as the deployment phase and I have corrected my strategy accordingly to prevent it from happening again.

I love to lose, odd as it sounds. Every time I lose I have the opportunity to reevaluate and improve my strategy accordingly based on how I lost and how my enemy exploited my weaknesses. My strategy will never be perfect so there's always ways it can be improved. My restructured strategy and list will be used as early as the next game.

 

[Pinktaco]

So I was at my local store today. To guys who'll both be at the tournament this month played. I'll be participating the tournament as well.

One of the guys had what is basically his standard nurgle list: 2 blocks of plaguebearers, 1 blocks of beasts and a couple of cannons and a couple of mages. Besides the fact that he had an awful lot of magic (rolled 4 dice for 3 different magic so that confused me), it didn't worry me that much. Well except that he rolled purple sun so I know what he'll be aiming for.

Anyway the other player had 2 terrorgheist and a vamp lord on dragon. Since we don't allow 50% lord choice he was low on magic. When I first looked at the flying monsters I thought to myself they'd be unbeatable, but the strange thing is that the dragon lord came off as being fairly manageable. I can see him with two different item combinations: the usual 4+ ward and +2S sword OR nightshroud and talisman. Well unless he want to gamble and have no ward by going nightshroud and sword. I'd actuslly prefer the nightshroud combination because that would leave him at S5 which doesn't do sh1t on our OB. I could challenge him and flank charge with something else and crumble him to death. With ward and sword the OB will target the dragon, put two wounds in it, likely win combat resolution by 1-2 depending on received wound or not. Both will then take a wound from crumble. Right?

So dragon lord Is as said fairly manageable with the fully kitted OB. My concern, however, lie with the terrorgheists. I'm going with lore of metal slann and tetto'eko so thunderbolt should target a gheist, but they'll be up in my face regardless.

What to do about these fvcker? If I can pick off some wounds on it my BSB scar vet can likely take one by himself, but not before the scream have been reduced in effectiveness. What are the odds of removing 4 wounds before close combat? Seems low. With that said if I charge it in my turn, deal a wound, take none myself it'll lose CR by 3 (due to being a BSB, charge and wound) and thus effectively lose 4 wounds. Not bad if the stars align.

Any other suggestions? 3 flying monsters are tonight. The rest of the list is a bunch of skellies and a graveguard horde.

 

[Bainbow]

So I was at my local store today. To guys who'll both be at the tournament this month played. I'll be participating the tournament as well.

One of the guys had what is basically his standard nurgle list: 2 blocks of plaguebearers, 1 blocks of beasts and a couple of cannons and a couple of mages. Besides the fact that he had an awful lot of magic (rolled 4 dice for 3 different magic so that confused me), it didn't worry me that much. Well except that he rolled purple sun so I know what he'll be aiming for.

Anyway the other player had 2 terrorgheist and a vamp lord on dragon. Since we don't allow 50% lord choice he was low on magic. When I first looked at the flying monsters I thought to myself they'd be unbeatable, but the strange thing is that the dragon lord came off as being fairly manageable. I can see him with two different item combinations: the usual 4+ ward and +2S sword OR nightshroud and talisman. Well unless he want to gamble and have no ward by going nightshroud and sword. I'd actuslly prefer the nightshroud combination because that would leave him at S5 which doesn't do sh1t on our OB. I could challenge him and flank charge with something else and crumble him to death. With ward and sword the OB will target the dragon, put two wounds in it, likely win combat resolution by 1-2 depending on received wound or not. Both will then take a wound from crumble. Right?

So dragon lord Is as said fairly manageable with the fully kitted OB. My concern, however, lie with the terrorgheists. I'm going with lore of metal slann and tetto'eko so thunderbolt should target a gheist, but they'll be up in my face regardless.

What to do about these fvcker? If I can pick off some wounds on it my BSB scar vet can likely take one by himself, but not before the scream have been reduced in effectiveness. What are the odds of removing 4 wounds before close combat? Seems low. With that said if I charge it in my turn, deal a wound, take none myself it'll lose CR by 3 (due to being a BSB, charge and wound) and thus effectively lose 4 wounds. Not bad if the stars align.

Any other suggestions? 3 flying monsters are tonight. The rest of the list is a bunch of skellies and a graveguard horde.

You want a Lore of Light Slann, especially against the vampires. A single boosted Shem's on one of the terrorgheists will kill it, as will a Banishment if you get lucky enough, and a Shem's on the Vampire will do considerable damage to the isolated model, even kill it if you get lucky enough. Speed of Light, easy to bubble cast, will make his infantry hit on 5's, combine that with the easily bubbled Pha's Protection to make them hit on 6's. As Vampires lack ranged, I'd advise holding back and blasting his undead monsters with Shem's and maybe Banishment if you can also get it, but Shem's is better as it hits at S6, with an additional D6 hits which is massive. Remember that you don't have to make use of Tetto's Vanguard ability if it's tactically inferior to holding back your lines. He's low on magic you said so dispelling it all will be notably harder for him to do. Not only is Lore of Light made to kill the Undead thanks to its Attribute, it's made to turn Saurus into killers as it covers all of their weaknesses. This covering of weaknesses also applies to the Chaos fellow, regular Chaos Warriors versus Light-booster Saurus will end in a Saurus win.

 

[Elholm]

what kind of list are you using? the thing is i could see you castling up in a corner, and then try to kill them in CC... a templeguard with jaguar banner seems ideal here (if you go saurus heavy) or poison skinks...

 

[Pinktaco]

You want a Lore of Light Slann, especially against the vampires. A single boosted Shem's on one of the terrorgheists will kill it, as will a Banishment if you get lucky enough, and a Shem's on the Vampire will do considerable damage to the isolated model, even kill it if you get lucky enough. Speed of Light, easy to bubble cast, will make his infantry hit on 5's, combine that with the easily bubbled Pha's Protection to make them hit on 6's. As Vampires lack ranged, I'd advise holding back and blasting his undead monsters with Shem's and maybe Banishment if you can also get it, but Shem's is better as it hits at S6, with an additional D6 hits which is massive. Remember that you don't have to make use of Tetto's Vanguard ability if it's tactically inferior to holding back your lines. He's low on magic you said so dispelling it all will be notably harder for him to do. Not only is Lore of Light made to kill the Undead thanks to its Attribute, it's made to turn Saurus into killers as it covers all of their weaknesses. This covering of weaknesses also applies to the Chaos fellow, regular Chaos Warriors versus Light-booster Saurus will end in a Saurus win.

While I realize Lore of Light is the preferred lore amongst most other LM player on this forum to want to try out Metal. Although the chance of knocking off 3-4 wounds on a terrorgheist with Shem's is interesting. I'll be play-testing my list before the tournament, so we'll have to see. Currently I'm quote pumped for metal even though I realize it's not preferred as much.

But I do have one comment - lore of Light doesn't remove all weaknesses. Lore of metal cam give both +1 To Hit along with armour piercing to the saurus and minus WS1/amour on the opponent. Not the same as WS10/I10, but definitely not bad when used in conjunction with plague of rust which is a permanent spell =]
Point is that while light is good against some enemies metal is good against others. Who will I meet the most? No clue =]

Thanks for the input though ^^

 

[Pinktaco]

what kind of list are you using? the thing is i could see you castling up in a corner, and then try to kill them in CC... a templeguard with jaguar banner seems ideal here (if you go saurus heavy) or poison skinks...

Ah yes I hadn't actually thought about castling up. Terrorgheists do, however, have a 28" threat range.

I'll likely have something of this kind:

Metal slann, channel dice combo, reroll one failed dispel attempt.

OB with AoD, Dawnstone, cold one, GW.

Scar Vet BSB with spear, light armour, talisman of preservation, charmed shield and cold one.

Tetto'eko.

40 saurus warriors.
2 x 10 Skink Skirmishers.
1 x 10 Skink cohort.

30 templeguards.
7 CoRs /w spears.
2 x 5 cameleon skinks.

I could likely dump spears and a single templeguard and gain the jaguar banner. Templeguards can flat out remove a terrorgheist in a single turn of combat. They'll do 4 wounds in combat, only lose 3 themselves and have 3 ranks + banner and win combat by a lot. Even if he dual charged me with both he'd lose out lol.

I think the scary part is actually catching the terrorgheists. You'll want to be in combat with them in your own turn to avoid the screams.

 

[Pinktaco]

Hmm.. I just looked up the statistic thread. Templeguards have 80% chance of doing a charge on 11" range. That's actually quite good and will surprise people. Will see if I cannot incorporate the banner.

 

[Elholm]

my thought was that if you meet the terrorgheists then castle up and make sure you will be able to charge it with something... becuase it seems (from my small experience) that once its in combat it not as dangerous... and it can only scream like 12"??? therefore jaguar would be good, and a surprice (unless open lists )
when thinking of it.. his list, while good with Vampire on dragon and terrorG, then it does not synergize that well, i mean 3 flying monsters where only 1 want to combat and 3-4 slow blocks of infantry.. if he over extends then it should be possible to steamroll...

 

[Bainbow]

While I realize Lore of Light is the preferred lore amongst most other LM player on this forum to want to try out Metal. Although the chance of knocking off 3-4 wounds on a terrorgheist with Shem's is interesting. I'll be play-testing my list before the tournament, so we'll have to see. Currently I'm quote pumped for metal even though I realize it's not preferred as much.

But I do have one comment - lore of Light doesn't remove all weaknesses. Lore of metal cam give both +1 To Hit along with armour piercing to the saurus and minus WS1/amour on the opponent. Not the same as WS10/I10, but definitely not bad when used in conjunction with plague of rust which is a permanent spell =]
Point is that while light is good against some enemies metal is good against others. Who will I meet the most? No clue =]

Thanks for the input though ^^

Fair. I'm no fan of the Lore of Metal because it lacks defensive buffs beyond the scaly skin one which is useless on the scaly lizardmen, but it's far from a bad lore. Also in Khaine magic it's the best lore in the game, in my opinion, Meteoric Ironclad is the best spell ever. But I digress, good luck either way. I do still stand by the belief that to deal with undead monsters, Shem's is the trick. I remember one game I had against them, used it to kill a terrorgheist on turn one, on turn 2 I used it to kill his vampire on a coven throne. The army was crippled.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Point is that while light is good against some enemies metal is good against others. Who will I meet the most? No clue =]

Light works really well with Lizardmen no matter what army you face. Metal is a lot more specific. Metal is great against armies like WoC or Bretonnia, but not so much against an army like Wood Elves, etc. Personally I would never choose metal over light for a Lizardmen all comers list. One of my biggest gripes with metal is that you can't make use of one of the best spells of the lore (Glittering Robe). Enchanted Blades and Final Transmutation are awesome spells but are not enough in my opinion to warrant the use of metal over light assuming you aren't tailoring your list to face WoC, Bretonnia, etc.

 

[Pinktaco]

Yeah my thoughts exactly. It's basically a make or break list, but his dragon lord is a trap for him. He'll want to reach close combat, but once he's locked in close combat my OB can zero in on him, challenge him and I'll with due to ranks, banner etc he'll die to CR/crumble even if he's in close combat.

The gheists can be taken down easily. As I mentioned my templeguards can in theory take on two of those fuckers and still come out good. On average two gheists will do 6 wounds including the thunderstomps. Guards will do 4-5, have 3 ranks and a banner so total worth of 8-9 CR. By the second round they'll be gone obviously not counting any screams so this is where I'll have to charge and not be charged lol.

Assuming he runs straigh up to my face he'll leave the rest behind. With luck I can take out the monsters before the rest hit.
The crucial part, with the exception of getting the charge myself, is to not be charged by all 3 at once. So I'll have to separate them. <.<

 

[Bainbow]

Yeah my thoughts exactly. It's basically a make or break list, but his dragon lord is a trap for him. He'll want to reach close combat, but once he's locked in close combat my OB can zero in on him, challenge him and I'll with due to ranks, banner etc he'll die to CR/crumble even if he's in close combat.

The gheists can be taken down easily. As I mentioned my templeguards can in theory take on two of those fuckers and still come out good. On average two gheists will do 6 wounds including the thunderstomps. Guards will do 4-5, have 3 ranks and a banner so total worth of 8-9 CR. By the second round they'll be gone obviously not counting any screams so this is where I'll have to charge and not be charged lol.

Assuming he runs straigh up to my face he'll leave the rest behind. With luck I can take out the monsters before the rest hit.
The crucial part, with the exception of getting the charge myself, is to not be charged by all 3 at once. So I'll have to separate them. <.<

Are you sure your OB can beat him? Killy vampire lords are massively powerful and he's got the dragon to attack too.

 

[Pinktaco]

Light works really well with Lizardmen no matter what army you face. Metal is a lot more specific. Metal is great against armies like WoC or Bretonnia, but not so much against an army like Wood Elves, etc. Personally I would never choose metal over light for a Lizardmen all comers list. One of my biggest gripes with metal is that you can't make use of one of the best spells of the lore (Glittering Robe). Enchanted Blades and Final Transmutation are awesome spells but are not enough in my opinion to warrant the use of metal over light assuming you aren't tailoring your list to face WoC, Bretonnia, etc.

But this is where I see things differently. Even removing 1 point of armour on any unit with heavy armour (white lions, grave guards etc) will boost my saurus warriors. Plague rust is a permanent hex. Transmutation of lead is.. Less than ideal, but -1 armour and WS can come in handy. There are plenty of WS3-4 models to engage (gors, plaguebearers, Savage Orcs, grave guards etc). Transmutation of gold I'd obviously good. Searing Doom isn't only good against 1+ models, but any good armoured monsters (mostly dragons and treemen?). In fact it can be used against chimera and pop a wound or two. The most important fact here though is that with tetto'eko I can allow myself to experiment.

Is metal the most optimal? No of course not, but like using saurus warriors I cannot turn it down without properly trying it out. I can personally find plenty of examples where metal will be average to good.

Besides there is plenty of armour in the game:
CoK, IC knights, Bretonnia, Dragon Princes, WoC, other LM players, reducing armour on dwarfs, chariots from Beastmen, treemen, dragons, doom wheel and likely more.

Again there's no doubt that having WS10/I10 is good against all armies, but there are plenty of targets for me to consider metal. Claiming "herp derp only 2 factions have 1+ save knights" is imo foolish. We take sword saurus just for that parry, why wouldn't we want to do the opposite and remove the possibility for our opponent to save on 6+?

Also just the possibly to reduce any 2+ knights to 3+ before combat is HUGE. Do that and remove they're down to 4+ against saurus warriors. Add either the AP buff or armour save hex on top and they're down by another point. Plague rust can be cast in first turn of the game and pay itself back for the rest of the game.

Different opinions? Definitely! But I like to experiment and tetto'eko allow just that

Ps yes I will try out light as well ^^

 

[Bainbow]

But this is where I see things differently. Even removing 1 point of armour on any unit with heavy armour (white lions, grave guards etc) will boost my saurus warriors. Plague rust is a permanent hex. Transmutation of lead is.. Less than ideal, but -1 armour and WS can come in handy. There are plenty of WS3-4 models to engage (gors, plaguebearers, Savage Orcs, grave guards etc). Transmutation of gold I'd obviously good. Searing Doom isn't only good against 1+ models, but any good armoured monsters (mostly dragons and treemen?). In fact it can be used against chimera and pop a wound or two. The most important fact here though is that with tetto'eko I can allow myself to experiment.

Is metal the most optimal? No of course not, but like using saurus warriors I cannot turn it down without properly trying it out. I can personally find plenty of examples where metal will be average to good.

Besides there is plenty of armour in the game:
CoK, IC knights, Bretonnia, Dragon Princes, WoC, other LM players, reducing armour on dwarfs, chariots from Beastmen, treemen, dragons, doom wheel and likely more.

Again there's no doubt that having WS10/I10 is good against all armies, but there are plenty of targets for me to consider metal. Claiming "herp derp only 2 factions have 1+ save knights" is imo foolish. We take sword saurus just for that parry, why wouldn't we want to do the opposite and remove the possibility for our opponent to save on 6+?

Also just the possibly to reduce any 2+ knights to 3+ before combat is HUGE. Do that and remove they're down to 4+ against saurus warriors. Add either the AP buff or armour save hex on top and they're down by another point. Plague rust can be cast in first turn of the game and pay itself back for the rest of the game.

Different opinions? Definitely! But I like to experiment and tetto'eko allow just that

Ps yes I will try out light as well ^^

Problem is you aren't counting dispels or time. It's one hex every two turns and it can be dispelled, it looks good on paper but it's extremely slow.

 

[Pinktaco]

Are you sure your OB can beat him? Killy vampire lords are massively powerful and he's got the dragon to attack too.

it's not about outright killing. When you're on combat the overall combat resolution is still accounted for. The OB have plenty of saves to survive a vamp lord for some time (we did the math in another thread and the OB and VL was actuslly equal).
If I can reduce the incoming wounds to 0-1 I'll automatically win due to combat res.

Unless of course I've misunderstood how challenges and CR work?
At any rate I'm fairly certain that if two blocks engage and you challenge the opponents character with your and win the overall combat the challenge will break if the opponent lose the combat. Since they're undead they don't break, but lose crumble.

 

[Haemoglobin]

Most common build on a vampire on zombie dragon = nightshroud, other trickster shard, talisman of preservation + red fury, beguile, quickblood. 5 S7 ws 7 attacks with possible rerolls (if he got vanhels off which will probably be in the list somewhere) with extra attacks per wound. Plus you reroll your successful wardsaves. Then he gets another 5 or 6 S6 attacks (not sure dont have the book on me atm) from that dragon before you can strike. That thing is nasty.

 

[Bainbow]

Most common build on a vampire on zombie dragon = nightshroud, other trickster shard, talisman of preservation + red fury, beguile, quickblood. 5 S7 ws 7 attacks with possible rerolls (if he got vanhels off which will probably be in the list somewhere) with extra attacks per wound. Plus you reroll your successful wardsaves. Then he gets another 5 or 6 S6 attacks (not sure dont have the book on me atm) from that dragon before you can strike. That thing is nasty.

Basically he's going to need some defensive buffs in order to stay alive.

 

[Pinktaco]

Problem is you aren't counting dispels or time. It's one hex every two turns and it can be dispelled, it looks good on paper but it's extremely slow.

I just need to get off plague of rust off once for it to work. If I'm not allowed to get spells off neither is my opponent. The thing about plague PF rust is that it's permanent. Besides arguing that Light >Metal and then arguing Dispels > me is kinda silly? Why should metal be any more dispelled than light? Besides I still got other spells from heaven most people would priorities.
Just to be clear I am aware that I can't guarantee that spells go off neither can my opponent. I'm not basing my army directly on magic - if you look at my strategy concerning the dragon lord/terrorgheist no magic was involved.

Also do be aware that I have tetto'eko. He might screw me over 1/6 magic phase, but those other phases I'll be off with a very good (unless I IF) buff and thus be able to potentially get more spells off ^^

And just to be clear - I don't want to come off as arrogant or unwilling to listen. I'm very must listening to everything you guys say. I take it all with me and will eventually try it all out.

 

[Pinktaco]

Basically he's going to need some defensive buffs in order to stay alive.

That build - without red fury - is 614pts. Getting off 1 spell at Lvl 2 vs Lvl 4 who can reroll failed dispel attempt? Thats somewhat unlikely.

S7 (lance) will on average do 1,2 wound. Without Lance he'll do 0,8 wounds. Either way I lose 1 wound, Dragon do 0,20 wound. I don't need to do any wounds on it and all of this is assuming he'll charge me. Without the charge both will do zero wounds.

I'm not spewing sh1t here. Check the math. Mine could be wrong ^^ if I can lock the dragon lord in a challenge anything charges buff my CR with ranks, banner and charge.

Please do tell if I've misunderstood anything. I want to have my facts straight

**EDIT** please remember this is without 50% lords since we don't play with that.