8th Ed. 2400 P. Let's go Kroakbombing

[airjamy]

One very cheesy tactic in the book is the Kroakbomb, and i intend to surprise some people with it in semi-competetive, fun games. Interested in your oppinion on it, has anybody done it to this extreme before? Plan is easy, one strong core of unbreakable TG with stubborn ld 9 Stegadons flanking it while i fling in my skink priests one by one to the centre of their army, Kroakbombing all the way. . I am not quite sure what i should do with the Sauri, have to fill the core tax i guess which i now barely do.

Lords

Kroak

Heroes

Skink Priest. Arabyan Carpet
Skink Priest. Cloak of Feathers.

Core

12 Skink Skirmishers
12 Skink Skirmishers
12 Skink Skirmishers
11 Skink Skirmishers
25 Saurus Warriors. HWS. Banner. Music

Special.

46 TG. Full Command. Banner of Swiftness.
Stegadon. Sharpened Horns.
Stegadon. Sharpened Horns.

 

[laribold]

Sadly, the TG can't take the Ironcurse Icon. The TG champ can only take a magic weapon, more's the pity.

You could just go all skink core (or Skrox for some S7)

 

[airjamy]

Thanks, you are right. I swapped around some things, to bad i cant use the Ironcurse. I tried fitting in a BSB with maybe the amulet, but i cant find the points. I am no fan of the Skrox, so i dont use it often.

 

[Rettile]

I'd try to squeeze Tetto in

 

[airjamy]

Why, what would he do? In this list, i want to stay back, deny zones with my TG and blast away with Kroak. His main thing is his Vanguard, which i won't want to use, and he will suck up power dice from Kroak? I do not see his point.

 

[rantapanda]

Switch two steggies for two tooled up oldbloods on cold ones and you are set to go

 

[Rettile]

Why, what would he do? In this list, i want to stay back, deny zones with my TG and blast away with Kroak. His main thing is his Vanguard, which i won't want to use, and he will suck up power dice from Kroak? I do not see his point.

He helps kroak with the casting: in lategame, when TGs will be in the middle of the fight, you'll probably want to 1-2 dice DoItza (omg it sounds like "Do it, tza!", where "tza" clearly is a battle cry) and rerolling 1s could help a lot. Moreover Tetto has a full lore, so he can help you giving the flexibility you'll need since your skinks will die too fast to buff anything, and he's an additional arcane vassal if things go bad. Vanguard is a nice tool aswell, it has its uses even if you plan to stay back. For example you could vanguard your skirmishers baiting your opponent and making him leave a hole where you can put your vassals, or if you get a 2 you could vanguard a vassal and TGs putting your flying skink, well, pretty much where you want and still being able to vassal (remember the 24" range) and then walk back with TGs and wait the enemies. I usually field these two special characters together, but it's personal taste i guess

 

[Skinquisitor]

AAAAND, Tetto'eko is another arcane vessel Id use his vanguards to push forward the skink priests. Vanguard--> you are at his lines at turn 1, after deployment, its more likely that your opponents forces are more concentrated.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

When you guys play the Kroakbomb... do you assume that his spell can be directed into close combat or not?

 

[airjamy]

He helps kroak with the casting: in lategame, when TGs will be in the middle of the fight, you'll probably want to 1-2 dice DoItza (omg it sounds like "Do it, tza!", where "tza" clearly is a battle cry) and rerolling 1s could help a lot. Moreover Tetto has a full lore, so he can help you giving the flexibility you'll need since your skinks will die too fast to buff anything, and he's an additional arcane vassal if things go bad. Vanguard is a nice tool aswell, it has its uses even if you plan to stay back. For example you could vanguard your skirmishers baiting your opponent and making him leave a hole where you can put your vassals, or if you get a 2 you could vanguard a vassal and TGs putting your flying skink, well, pretty much where you want and still being able to vassal (remember the 24" range) and then walk back with TGs and wait the enemies. I usually field these two special characters together, but it's personal taste i guess

That seems a reasonable explanation, but when i play this list i see it as a ''fun'' list. I want all my lists to have at least a bit of bite, if your list can't do anything because it is poorly designed it is not fun to play at all, but that does not mean that everything has to be perfectly optimzed. Thanks for the input, if i would try this on a tournament if it really works out i will consider Tetto.

Also, to Skinquisitor, i feel that in this list you want second turn so you can fling in your priests turn one. Most enemies will move up, within 20'' range, and then you fly in to have fun. I have not even thought about the fact that Tetto is another Arcana Vassal, i don't think it means much as it seems as you will want to hold him back instead of the Skinks.

Deliverance of Itza is a direct damage spell, so i would say it cannot be directed into combat,

 

[Rettile]

When you guys play the Kroakbomb... do you assume that his spell can be directed into close combat or not?

Yes, and same with EotG. If an opponent doesn't agree i just pick a different list, just make sure to discuss the rule before the game and to have another list ready haha (talking about friendly games obv)
anyway, IMO the rule is clear: "all enemy units" for me means all enemy units, not "all the enemy units not engaged in combat". It makes sense even fluffwise: DD spells cannot normally affect enemy units in combat because they could hit friendly units, but DoItza almost always has friendly units in range unless Kroak uses a vassal, so i guess we're talking about a spell which is able to recognize friends from foes, or it would affect friendly units aswell.
I can see competitive opponents trying to make you believe you cannot use the spell this way, but in friendly games i've always met guys who asked me to read the rule and then told me exactly what i think: all means all. Remember that when a conflict occurs AB>BRB, and this is a conflict. Why? Again because "all" is different from "some of"

 

[airjamy]

Yes, and same with EotG. If an opponent doesn't agree i just pick a different list, just make sure to discuss the rule before the game and to have another list ready haha (talking about friendly games obv)
anyway, IMO the rule is clear: "all enemy units" for me means all enemy units, not "all the enemy units not engaged in combat". It makes sense even fluffwise: DD spells cannot normally affect enemy units in combat because they could hit friendly units, but DoItza almost always has friendly units in range unless Kroak uses a vassal, so i guess we're talking about a spell which is able to recognize friends from foes, or it would affect friendly units aswell.
I can see competitive opponents trying to make you believe you cannot use the spell this way, but in friendly games i've always met guys who asked me to read the rule and then told me exactly what i think: all means all. Remember that when a conflict occurs AB>BRB, and this is a conflict. Why? Again because "all" is different from "some of"

I do think you cannot say it can target units is CC, page 31 of the BRB states that spells cannot be cast into CC unless otherwise stated, and stating that all units are hit does not specifically state that units in CC can be targeted. I know of very few direct damage spells that can be targeted into CC, only Shield of Thorns comes to mind, and that spell does very clearly state it only works in CC.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I do think you cannot say it can target units is CC, page 31 of the BRB states that spells cannot be cast into CC unless otherwise stated, and stating that all units are hit does not specifically state that units in CC can be targeted. I know of very few direct damage spells that can be targeted into CC, only Shield of Thorns comes to mind, and that spell does very clearly state it only works in CC.

I agree that this is a very grey area. I can see the interpretation going either way, but I feel you're probably correct... and unlike predatory fighter, this has a very large impact in a game.

 

[airjamy]

I agree that this is a very grey area. I can see the interpretation going either way, but I feel you're probably correct... and unlike predatory fighter, this has a very large impact in a game.

Oh please, do not bring predatory figther into this! :O . I do think this matters a lot, but even though it is a grey area, the rules are somewhat more clear about this then the predatory fighter rules. As i mentioned, page 31 seems to be quite concise in proving this.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Oh please, do not bring predatory figther into this!

Hahaha... fair enough. I wasn't trying to compare their rule ambiguity, but rather to say that this might have a bigger impact in a game (assuming Kroak is fielded of course). Trust me I have no desire to debate the predatory fighter rule.

 

[Rettile]

Well, i don't agree. Don't hate me please (please don't do it ), but on page 31 i read the following things in the general spell description:

"Targeting restrictions vary from spell to spell. However, unless stated otherwise the following rules apply:
• The target must lie within the Wizard's forward arc.
• The Wizard does not need line of sight to his target.
• The target must be within the spell's range.
• Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat.
Some spells have a type that enforces additional casting restrictions, or waives others"

I won't quote the DD section because the only relevant element is about templates, so not about DoItza.

Then i read the army book and i see "targets all the enemy units within 12".
This seems stating otherwise, at least to me.
Please notice that if you think that this is not a conflict and that AB and BRB can coexist here you can only target enemies not engaged in combat, within the range you choose and in kroak's (or vassal's) forward arc.
If you agree that this is a conflict then armybook wins.

So yeah, it's a grey area: untill we get a FAQ (or we get FAQed) we can only agree to disagree, but since we can see it either black OR white, not grey, make sure to follow all the restrictions if you go with your interpretation. Don't misunderstand me, i got your point and i think it's a valid one, still i think it's wrong since IMO kroak and DoItza fluff, BRB magic fluff, old DoItza rules and expecially the new rules i've just quoted are pointing in this direction. Oh, and shield of thorns is an augment, not a DD
Anyway i don't want and i don't expect to change somebody's mind, and this is why i always have an additional list ready when i plan to field a kroak bomb list

 

[airjamy]

Well, i don't agree. Don't hate me please (please don't do it ), but on page 31 i read the following things in the general spell description:

"Targeting restrictions vary from spell to spell. However, unless stated otherwise the following rules apply:
• The target must lie within the Wizard's forward arc.
• The Wizard does not need line of sight to his target.
• The target must be within the spell's range.
• Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat.
Some spells have a type that enforces additional casting restrictions, or waives others"

I won't quote the DD section because the only relevant element is about templates, so not about DoItza.

Then i read the army book and i see "targets all the enemy units within 12".
This seems stating otherwise, at least to me.
Please notice that if you think that this is not a conflict and that AB and BRB can coexist here you can only target enemies not engaged in combat, within the range you choose and in kroak's (or vassal's) forward arc.
If you agree that this is a conflict then armybook wins.

So yeah, it's a grey area: untill we get a FAQ (or we get FAQed) we can only agree to disagree, but since we can see it either black OR white, not grey, make sure to follow all the restrictions if you go with your interpretation. Don't misunderstand me, i got your point and i think it's a valid one, still i think it's wrong since IMO kroak and DoItza fluff, BRB magic fluff, old DoItza rules and expecially the new rules i've just quoted are pointing in this direction. Oh, and shield of thorns is an augment, not a DD
Anyway i don't want and i don't expect to change somebody's mind, and this is why i always have an additional list ready when i plan to field a kroak bomb list

It does not state otherwise in my oppinion, as it does not state that it can hit things in close combat. I feel that rules must directly contradict the BRB rules for the armybook>BRB rule to come into effect, and it does not in this case. That the spell hits every enemy in range does not change the fact that it cannot hit certain units, such as units in CC. If the rule would say that it always hit all enemies withing 12'' i feel like you might have a point, in this current ruleset i really think it does not work in the way you presume, even though it is still an interpretation untill we get that bloody FAQ.

You are right that the shield is an augment, but it still is the closest thing of something of a damage spell doing damage into CC bar templates that scatter and such.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I wish Kroak's spell was a Hex like Lore of Slaanesh's Cacophonic Choir.

 

[Rettile]

It does not state otherwise in my oppinion, as it does not state that it can hit things in close combat.

I don't understand how "all" vs "the ones not engaged" (aka "some of") is not a contradiction. Engaged enemy units are still enemy units, and the spell's description tells it targets all enemy units within range, not some of them. But it's fine, it's a matter of interpretation and i know it's possible (and very likely) that i'm wrong here. Just remember that, if you use your interpretation, you have to use the one regarding the forward arc aswell, so not a bubble, but a cone (well, almost).
Anyway, when (and if) that FAQin' FAQ comes out i'll pay you a beer if you're right and i'll draw a big red cross on Kroak's pages in the armybook.
Don't worry, i'm joking!
.
.
.
.
It would be almost impossible to meet you for a beer!

 

[airjamy]

I certainly would not mind meeting over a beer to settle this argument once and for all with a fellow lizard, but living in the Netherlands while this site is seemingly mostly based around the Americas seems problematic for that. Let's just say GW has to put their shit together, and that you just have to talk things trough with your opponent before you play.