8th Ed. predatory fighter really should've just been for our characters

[Pinktaco]

It's quite simple really. The benefit on our rank and file saurus is diminished by the drawback that we need a skink character nearby. On average we're talking about 2 extra hits and with our lackluster weapon skill it'll usually amount to 1 extra wound.

But when it comes to our characters it's suddenly quite something else. Our Oldbloods basically have 6 attacks or more specifically he have 5,8 attacks. It's quite a substantial boost because unlike our rnf troops he actually come with a decent WS and S7. It's much more terrifying for your opponents to see 1 or more sixes roll on the To Hit phase because the OB will most likely be wounding on 2+ and remove most armour.

The same thing can more or less be said with our scar vets although it's not quite as guaranteed as with the OB.

PF also scales well with attack boosting magic or weapons. Our saurus characters are mostly used as "Cowboys" and will either mostly be alone or in a COR unit. Regardless the downside of PF isn't as much an issue as with the other saurus.

Personally I find it to be a good secondary rule for our characters. It might not be as ridiculous as fighting in an additional rank or rerolling 1s on the To Wound phase, but a decent and balanced special rule.

It's a shame though because GW really dropped the ball with our rnf units. The "synergy" with our troglodon is hilarious and if we cannot utilize PF on the second rank, it's as mentioned earlier, useless. It could have been great for our normal units, but now it's merely a nice buff for our characters.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

and if we cannot utilize PF on the second rank, it's as mentioned earlier, useless

The debate that shall not be named!!

You make some good points. I don't actually mind the PF rule being applied across the board as it currently is. I believe it just needs a few tweaks and it would be absolutely fine...

-FAQ to make PF attacks from the second rank official
-Allow Slanns to restrain pursuit like skinks do


Either way, I don't feel PF to be that much of an inconvenience most of the time. In many situations you will want to pursue in order to score the victory points. Against small chaff units, you will likely annihilate them down to the last man, so you don't need to test for pursuit and can reform as normal. Admittedly, the rule will bite you in the butt the odd time or two, but I don't think it is as drastic as some may believe. Plus, extra PF attacks on Kroxigor are delicious!

 

[Skinquisitor]

I totally agree, its much more usefull on characters. Once I rolled 4 sixes, I managed 8 wounds with him that turn Sadly it was done to a block, wich remained steadfast...

 

[Mr Phat]

Predatory Fighters drawback is a SERIOUS one, and I cant seem to understand how people say "meh, it doesn't matter".

In a game where position is EVERYTHING the possibility to get dragged around by your nose is vital.
People in my environment has learned to take advantage of it, and I fail to see how they couldn't.

1. Put chaff in front of PF unit, so it cant get by or charge without going at it.
2. Make sure that its angled so the PF unit will overrun into a terrible position.
3. Set up a unit to flank/Combo charge it WHEN IT DOES.

I have more than once declined to take a good charge because of the position it would put me in afterwards.
I have also found that I have to be way more careful with my Cowboys (Note: PF on Characters is so powerful that it is worth it).

Unless you chop the chaff / bait unit up entirely (which is not always a safe gambit!) then you are many times over making a bad trade off.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

1. Put chaff in front of PF unit, so it cant get by or charge without going at it.
2. Make sure that its angled so the PF unit will overrun into a terrible position.
3. Set up a unit to flank/Combo charge it WHEN IT DOES.

But how many chaff units are going to survive against our PF units? The only time you need to pursue is if they unit survives, breaks and you don't have a skink character near by.

PF doesn't come into play if...

• the enemy unit is killed to the last man
• if the enemy unit does not break
• if you have a skink character near by

I'm not saying that PF has no downside, I'm claiming that it doesn't come into play as often as people might think.

 

[n810]

Can't remember the last time I wanted to restrain a pursuit with Saurus...

 

[Man0waR]

We are not forced to Overrun.

Just pursuing and if you are afraid where that chase would end, you can always put some skirmishers behind the chaff unit.
So you pursue and stop right there. With the chance of catching them on the flee.

PF is delicious, It feels not a big deal due our crapy WS on the overall army. But you have to roll with the metal spell of +1 to hit, or speed of light.
When you are hitting on 3's or 2's and every 6's is another roll, mate. This make the difference.
The problem is we are hitting on 4's or 5's, sometimes even 6's. So the additional roll we gladly change it for a better % of hit.

PF on saurus warriors is not a big deal, but in Templeguard or Kroxigor its golden.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Can't remember the last time I wanted to restrain a pursuit with Saurus...

We are not forced to Overrun.

This is exactly right. If you charge chaff, you will most likely wipe it out to the last man so PF does not come into play. If you're fighting something other than chaff you will usually want to pursue anyways to secure the victory points.

Just pursuing and if you are afraid where that chase would end, you can always put some skirmishers behind the chaff unit.
So you pursue and stop right there. With the chance of catching them on the flee.

That's nice trick!

PF on saurus warriors is not a big deal, but in Templeguard or Kroxigor its golden.

Indeed... especially on those premium strength 7 Kroxigor attacks!!!

 

[Koranot]

I agree that the drawback from PF is negligible.

Additionally PF can be really good when you direct your attacks to characters, as even one additional attack can make the difference between a dead or an alive character.

 

[KingCheops]

Predatory Fighters drawback is a SERIOUS one, and I cant seem to understand how people say "meh, it doesn't matter".

I'm rapidly learning from Whineseer that a lot of the current fantasy players seem to just want to belly bump in the middle and roll dice.

Fluff wise it makes even less sense on our characters. A race bred for war and highly disciplined...that continually breaks ranks unless a bunch of bureaucratic, chittering priests are around. Why should Kroq-Gar need or care about any tactical directions from Oxyotl, Itzi Bitzi, Tik'tak'to, or any of them?

 

[Koranot]

I'm rapidly learning from Whineseer that a lot of the current fantasy players seem to just want to belly bump in the middle and roll dice.

Fluff wise it makes even less sense on our characters. A race bred for war and highly disciplined...that continually breaks ranks unless a bunch of bureaucratic, chittering priests are around. Why should Kroq-Gar need or care about any tactical directions from Oxyotl, Itzi Bitzi, Tik'tak'to, or any of them?

Unfortunately the fluff behind the rules is not explained in the newer army books. IMO the PF rule represents the primal instincts of the saurus, which makes them more fierce fighters and makes them hunt fleeing prey. The Skinks do not have such predatory instincts and are therefore aware of the potential drawbacks of PF. So in your example Kroq-Gar would not take tactical directions from the Skinks but they would warn him to ignore his instincs because he would get in a dangerous situation otherwise.

 

[Mr Phat]

if you are afraid where that chase would end, you can always put some skirmishers behind the chaff unit.

So you are dedicating not only your combat block, but also a chaff unit? (2 units for 1 chaff = you opened up somewhere.)
Which you then use to actually charge-block your own combat unit?
Seems like a terrible waste of resources for little gain...but I dont know how you play, so if it works for you, It does.
,

I'm rapidly learning from Whineseer that a lot of the current fantasy players seem to just want to belly bump in the middle and roll dice.

Might be the explanation. no harm in that, just doesn't work that way in my environment.....its more like chess really.
Then again Lizardmen Combat armies aren't exactly a good choice either

Honestly, the only reason it "doesn't happen as much as people would think" is because your opponent haven't figured out how to abuse it.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

So you are dedicating not only your combat block, but also a chaff unit? (2 units for 1 chaff = you opened up somewhere.)
Which you then use to actually charge-block your own combat unit?

How often is a chaff unit going to survive a charge from a combat block? Do you regularly find that you are not able to kill a chaff unit down to the last man?

Honestly, the only reason it "doesn't happen as much as people would think" is because your opponent haven't figured out how to abuse it.

Or that Lizardmen players have learned how to deal with it.

 

[Man0waR]

Placing skirmishers to block the forced pursue is a reaction to a specific situation. Not the plan to go.

If they chaff you with something you know have high chance of surviving then you are forced to pursue and you see a very bad positioning. You can use that trick.

Also placing the skirmishers and holding a charge that otherwise would have reached your combat block denies one round of combat, allow to keep more men in the unit, and the combat begins in your turn. So you can countercharge, buff / hex in magic and try to turn the odds on your favour.

I think the spend of 70 points for that purpose worths it.

And dont get me wrong, I say some usefull trick but not always work. Every battle requires different messures.

There are many tricks with the current rule settings.
Like forcing enemy units to flee like 20" off the table.
Placing two units of Terradons/Chameleons behind in straight line and making the enemy unit to flee in that direction will send through both units (also DT test) placing at 1" from the second, just at the edge of the board. Bye unit.

Those are nice tricks but nothing guarantee they would work, they can work, if you see the chance, you could try.

 

[Mr Phat]

Or that Lizardmen players have learned how to deal with it.

We are going in circles here.
My main statement is it is too much for too little in return. Lets leave it there.

But to answer your question:
Chaff that has a fair chance of surviving for a flee against a Saurus Block.
(all placed for minimum return attacks of course)

Singles:
Trolls
Sabretusks (not above 50% survival, but its close enough for it to be worth it)
The occasional "1 wound left" Great eagle ..but lets count that out, as it dies more often than not as you say.

Units:
Silverhelms
slightly armored cavalry.
anything T4+
Harpies
Well...skinks..
any small Rank and file with a parrysave.
any "Champion in front" dart unit
any Conga line

there's probably more, but that is from the top of my head.

What is important to remember is that any of the above will have served their purpose the second they "Chaff" the block.
"There: they did good. "
What PF does is giving them a chance of doing much more than that: to bait your block into destruction, which make their use even MORE worthwhile.
In a game of chance like warhammer, I find that it is optimal to keep the quantity of my opponents "small chances with big profit" at an absolute minimum.

Furthermore....I cant come up with a single list I usually play against that wouldn't just take the Saurus head on, with odds in their favor

I love PF on Characters, Krox and the occasional TG+Skavenpelt (I dont play PF in supporting ranks btw)
but for regular Saurus I think it made a mediocre unit worse.

I dont have any more to say.

If it floats your boat, row it.

 

[n810]

and which of those is likely to flee without getting wiped out ?