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8th Ed. Dealing with Fast Cavalry

laribold
Cold One

laribold

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I had the dubious joy last night of coming up against an (almost) all Fast Cav Wood Elves list (Trueflight Glade Rider Core; 3x 8 Wild Rider units; 10x Waywatchers; Lvl4 High; Lvl4 Death; BSB and a Great Eagle) and whilst not exactly being the most fun in the world, it did make me work hard to get any points (and I did get some, just nowhere near enough!)

So, with the increase in Fast Cav/Flyer usage out there I thought it would be good to get the communities thoughts on how to deal with the scourge of an army that won't stand there and take a punch!

(And I'm really hoping it doesn't just boil down to Slann Magic, Cowboys and Skinks. I want my army to be something more than that...)
 
I wonder if our own fliers would be a decent solution, also heavens magic is decent for dealing with fliers.
not sure about he fast cav...
 
n810 said:
I wonder if our own fliers would be a decent solution
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They will probably be targeted and shot down pretty early I'd imagine.

What about a large unit of Razordons? They can shoot, stand and shoot and probably win most combats they would face against such a list.

laribold said:
And I'm really hoping it doesn't just boil down to Slann Magic, Cowboys and Skinks
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Those are always good options though! haha The two things that an avoidance list fears is speed and ranged firepower.
 
Step 1) Castle up in a corner somewhere. Deny them the ability to get in around at least one flank. Using terrain where possible is ideal (especially buildings).
Step 2) Maintain formation coherency, aka The Wall, to deny their advantage in mobility. Don't take any delicious bait set out to isolate any of your units, or find your units spinning in the wind.
Here's a great example of what I mean: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BumslriCAAARj9R.jpg:large

In this formation, the Lizardmen player (Jack Armstrong, for the curious), is covering all the space to deny his opponent the ability to control the board or the movement.

Step 3) Focus fire! Pick one unit, ideally the most threatening, and destroy it before moving onto the next. The more mobile effective units they have, the greater their advantage. Watch that BSB/General bubble range!

Great units vs Fast Cav include: Ripperdactyls (long threat range, multiple attacks at good strength vs usually low armour, KB); Terradons (Drops rocks vs any Fast Cav or skirmishers makes me drool); Salamanders (move and shoot mobility with a big template at good strength); Camo Skinks (move and shoot mobility, redirection); BASTILADONS (My Blasty, at least, is the Destroyer of Fast Cav. Notable achievements include blowing up 10 Dark Riders in one discharge. He can also take a charge from regular non-Wild Rider/Warlock Fast Cav and shrug it off, like a boss. Plus, no flank/rear bonuses!); flying Oldbloods (long threat range, good damage output, go Carpet + Talisman + Charmed Shield over AoD + Great Weapon); Saurus Cav (hear me out on this one. Yeah, they'll die to Wild Riders, but they can take a charge from any other Fast Cav and have the mobility to counter them and a high volume of S4 attacks); Skink-Kroxigor (move and shoot mobility, plus Stand and Shoot, plus the Kroxigor attacks, plus the ranks, makes them highly effective vs Fast Cav).

Note that if your intention is to charge (Rippers/Flybloods), you'll need multiples to deal with their fleeing shenanigans.
 
I guess I should have been clearer,
I meant terradons/raptordons vs great eagles.

indeed like 6 razordons would definitely give them pause.

Ps. I have run the numbers before, In a cav vs cav fight...
whoever gets the charge, usually wins.
 
Is this a spot where our jungle swarms with or without a arkodon would actually be useful? I ran the numbers a while ago versus Elyrian Reavers and the swarms maintained attacks better than skirmishers. 2 units of 2 take up a decent amount of real estate and cost 140 points. Add in the bastiladon with the ark of sotek and you potentially add to those units and also have the snakes for those times where you just can't quite catch the dancing bastards.
 
KingCheops said:
Add in the bastiladon with the ark of sotek and you potentially add to those units and also have the snakes for those times where you just can't quite catch the dancing bastards.
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Against a fast moving avoidance army I would always take a Solardon over the ark of sotek. The bound spell is simply too effective in that situation. I'm not a big fan of the ark personally, I believe if you want more snakes added to the unit, just buy more snakes instead of the bastilidon.
 
At this point, many High Elf players have gotten away from using more than 1-2 units of trimmed Reavers, and a lot have stopped taking them altogether in favor of units of 5 Silver Helms. The SH's punch harder and with better defense, for the loss of Fast Cav status.

If you want to test the true value of an anti-fast cavalry unit, prepare them to go against Dark Riders with full kit.
 
I don't have a lot of fast cavalry in my local meta but Razordon seem like the ideal anti-fast cav unit. Only got to try out the matchup once or twice, but it worked well from what little I saw.

A WD Slann with an arcane vassal should be able to put the hurting on enemy fast cav too though you are a bit dependent on the fickle winds of magic.
 
In my experience Terradon and Rippers tend to get focus fired turn 1 vs a heavy trueflight user. Being able to move, angle, AND remove our skirmish advantage is a huge blow to T3 fliers.

A small unit of chamo skinks are awesome for messing with their first turn. Plant them exactly 12" from the front of his Wild Riders and he can't vanguard. He can charge if he gets turn 1 but your skinks have a good chance of out-fleeing him. Even if they get truflighted right after that, I consider it well worth it.

Don't underestimate the giant blowpipe steg either. WE are really good at clearing high toughness or high armour, but not both at the same time (unless they have Withering, in which case make sure to dispel it). It can still die to a Wild Rider charge but you can linger at 18" and taunt the charge, standing and shooting if they do and counter charging in the likely case that they fail.

A kitted Oldblood is one of the few units with a reasonable chance of handling a Wild Rider charge too. A rerollable 1+ with a 4++ from the AoD will usually let you chew through one unit after enduring Waywatcher fire. Once again they can either negate your armor or your toughness, but not both without Withering.

Also want to echo the Bastilladon here. I've found they really wreck fast cav. Basically once you take the Wild Riders out you take out most of their punch. If you want to be aggressive focus on them early and then stroll across the field mopping points as you go :D
 
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Hooligan said:
A kitted Oldblood is one of the few units with a reasonable chance of handling a Wild Rider charge too.
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Great analysis, although I'd give the Oldblood a far more than a "reasonable" chance of handling a wild rider charge. The kitted out Oldblood you suggested will cut through Wild Riders like a hot knife through butter.
 
And, for completeness, as will a Scar-Vet Cowboy. But we all knew that, anyway.
 
Why didnt you even talk about skirmishers? A group of skirmishers on the average kills 3 of the riders per turn... you can almost field 2 skirmishers for each rider group... Drop rocks works pretty well against fast cav as well. 3d3 S4 hit against elves is ~4 dead rider.
 
And if you are using special characters this is one situation kroak works well, I played a game with kroak against wood elves and two lots of 6 diced kroaks spell and more than 50% of the wood elf army had been removed
 
owain_b said:
And if you are using special characters this is one situation kroak works well, I played a game with kroak against wood elves and two lots of 6 diced kroaks spell and more than 50% of the wood elf army had been removed
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I take it you were casting the really big version of the spell. That would definitely work against a wood elf avoidance army list. Venerable Lord Kroak for the win!
 
Yeah I was using the big version and I also had two sacrificial skinks, one with wings and one with carpet so turn 1 and 2 still got me lots of kills. The game went so well in my favour I almost felt sorry for the annoyance elves ;)
 
For magic.
Wandering Deliberations w/ book of ashur Slann.
1 or 2 Bastiladon/s
1 or 2 skink priest with heavens (scroll & cube they always run 2 lvl4)

Core
2 units of 30 or 40 skinks deployed 15 wide. If there are cowboys & priest goes here. Move forward denying their movement.
.

You win by magic and shooting, Your wounds are 5 and 7 points. And you can afford bringing lots of them.

Dont bring nothing soft or being able to kill it fast. They play on point denial, making some victory points and saving theirs.


In magic you begin casting magic missiles with your slann with 1 or 2 dices.
If your slann breaks concentration early, you now have the bastiladon bound spell to follow
Also with heavens you may have some offensive spells.

They will die at a good rate. As they are MSU and you bring rnf cheap wounds. You will score more points.
 
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