8th Ed. Scalenex finally joins the Consensus, I'm done with Saurus Warriors

[Scalenex]

So I looked back on my last several games. I tend to keep my Core the same. A block of Saurus Warriors for half my Core and Skinks for the other half. I realized my Saurus Warriors usually die without making a significant positive contribution to my games. It’s time for me to stop taking Saurus Warriors as standard issue.


When Saurus Warriors make me happy

-When I take a Light Slann

-When I take a Shadow Slann

-Opponent is Orcs and Goblins (exception that proves the rule)

-As Siege Attackers


When Saurus Warriors make me sad

-Versus _____s of Chaos

-Versus Empire

-In low magic lists

-With WD Slann

-With High Magic Slann

-With Death Slann

-With Tehenhauin or Tet (or Beasts* or Heavens* Slann)

-With Fire* Slann

-As Siege Defenders


When Saurus Warriors were passable for me

-With Metal Slann

-Versus Brettonians

-Versus _____ Elves

-Versus Undead

-Versus Dwarfs (or Chaos Dwarfs)

-in Storm of Magic games


* Educated Guess, not play tested


I’ve been trying to defend Saurus Warriors as a viable choice. No more. I’m done with Saurus. More Skinks and Skroxigor for me.

 

[Rettile]

While saurus warriors are surely very situational and not as good as our skirmishers i think you're being a little too negative (not more than the 80% of the community, tho). They are not a great unit, sure, but i don't think Skrox are better. Saurus warriors are a good core choice, but the competitive environment tends to prefer a different kind of core choices: our warriors could handle different kinds of ranked enemy core infantry, but other armies simply don't field them taking fast and/or armoured units like cavalry, shooting units and chaff (unless they are horde armies or elite ones). SWs are not the actual problem: our book feels old and poor if compared to the others, that's it. Three core choices is not enough, expecially when only one is a good investment in every situation. Too many units in our army need magical support, and while it was ok when our slanns used to dominate the magic phase things have changed, but not for the rest of the army. For us lizard generals the solution is often only one: redirect with skinks, again and again. Still better than the "forward and crush everything" strategy we can see used by others armies, but still it would be nice to change something sometimes. That being said, with some magical support SWs become beasts, literally, and not only with the lores you named. The problem, once again, is that usually you cannot stack buffs on two or more units and in the right moment, so better buffing TGs, which are basically better SWs and often your general's unit, and fullfill your core with skinks, because in the current meta redirecting the un-manageable enemy units is more important than fighting the manageable ones

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I would not be so hard on Saurus Warriors.
For me they do the job, and quite well actually. To "prove" it I can say that I have won the last 4 out of 5 games.
In fact most of my core consists of Saurus Warriors, and I do not have a Slann yet, to back them up with magic.
I think they are pretty good, especially with a banner like the Skavenpelt Banner to give them Frenzy, plus I play with Predatory fighter from supporting attacks, which of course helps a little, and usually with a character in the unit.
I normally run them in a 48 man unit/horde or a unit of 30.

 

[spawning of Bob]

Scalenex, you know how this makes me feel...



It makes me feel like recycling a roughly drawn old comic. How about this one?

"What's not to love?"

 

[Iskander]

The struggle is real. Sure SWs have S4, T4, and 2A, but when they take most of the game to cross the field (getting ranged down all the while) and only hit half the time, those don't matter as much. My (limited) experience has been what @Rettile described - to be effective, SWs must avoid things that can kill them (most things), with the help of the skink cloud, and instead hunt down weaker targets. It's not a bad plan at all, but it feels so backwards. Like, some armies' cores (I feel) help win by killing lots of units, while our core helps win by sacrificing low-cost units while carefully pursuing high-value targets. Is that really what the Old Ones intended? Sheesh.

Anyway, I'm sticking with my Saurus, but mostly because I've painted 57 skinks (including monster handlers, but not including ones mounted on things) in the last four months, and I'm going to lose my mind if I have to do more any time soon >_>

Also, I'd be less perplexed about SWs if the army book didn't describe them with such superlatives as "extremely dangerous," "devastating," and "created solely for the purpose of war and protection." Also it mentions something about a loping gait, which, uh, they don't have. Carnosaurs can if you pay for it, but SWs? Nope. (Wouldn't it be great if that were a typo, and they were supposed to have Loping Stride, but it got left out, and will be re-added in a timely FAQ? Sigh. A saurus can dream right?)

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

What they need are sacred spawnings, like marks of chaos.
quote(Iskander): I'd be less perplexed about SWs if the army book didn't describe them with such superlatives as "extremely dangerous," "devastating," and "created solely for the purpose of war and protection."
They should be roughly as good as Chaos Warriors (my opinion) given how they are portraid in the army book. Of course they should then be more expensive, but I feel they do not live up to their fluff.
Still, with that said, I have mostly had succes with them.

(Came to think of it: Why do we not make our own sacred spawning rules here on the site? They would probably be more balanced, than what we individually might come up with)

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

They should be roughly as good as Chaos Warriors (my opinion) given how they are portraid in the army book.

I don't believe that they should be on the level of Chaos Warriors. WoC is predominantly a close combat army, that is their specialty. It would be unfair for our saurus to be on that level. I also don't feel that fluff should be used to justify table top effectiveness or lack thereof.

What I think Lizardmen need is...
1. Sacred Spawnings for Saurus
2. At least 1-2 more viable core choices

 

[pendrake]

At least 1-2 more viable core choices

Skirmisher Saurus with Great Weapon/Flails (they need to be in the open order, 8th edition, version of skirmish to have room for their enormous flails)

Saurus Razordon Teams (the Saurian counterpart to the SKrox cohorts)

Cold One Archer Cavalry (two skink archers in a little howdah on a cold one; if the steed goes stupid the skinks can still shoot)

Saurus Stone Slingers (Saurus with atlatls; they launch really heavy rocks)

Horned One Archer Cavalry (two skink archers in a little howdah on a horned one)

 

[Rettile]

I hope you're joking LOL
Regarding the competitive core choiches, IMO terradons and arkadons could be core, as long as swarms (but come on, no one would field them anyway ) and maybe a skink light cavalry? Well, with terras in core that wouldn't be a need anymore, but you know. Maybe razordons in special with lone carnos in rare? Arg i have to stop wishlisting

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I'd love to see a skink fast cavalry unit in core!

 

[Slanputin]

I'd love to see a skink fast cavalry unit in core!

*Cough*bringbackhornedones!*cough*

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

*Cough*bringbackhornedones!*cough*

Precisely! That would be awesome. I think it would give us a lot more variation.

How would people feel if the Bastiladon was moved to core?

 

[FRYtheEGGofQUANGO]

I've always thought that it'd be cool to have a specialist skink skirmisher unit, full of badass skinks wearing skull helmets, carrying a varied arsenal of weaponry, very deadly, fast, with a bad attitude. Back when the short story contest was going on, I was writing a story about these guys I named 'Skink Skulkers', but unfortunately did not find the time to finish it.
Saurus warriors are decent, they just rely on some army synergy imo.

 

[Iskander]

Precisely! That would be awesome. I think it would give us a lot more variation.

How would people feel if the Bastiladon was moved to core?

I love the mounted skinks idea!

As for the Bastiladon, as hilariously fun as it would be to field those as core, I think that might be a bit overpowered for that. They're pretty darn versatile already (shooting, melee'ing with thunderstomp and high armour, casting spells sometimes, etc.).

But back to the SWs: I think a lot of my complaints about them could be fixed by just dropping their cost by a point or two. Probably just one. Two might be a bit much.

Anyway, I played a game today where my SWs broke a unit of demigryph knights, driving them off the board. So that was cool

 

[pendrake]

I like the notion of inventing new things. Call me crazy; ...but, not joking.

How about having a version of the Bastilodon (or some other big quad-footed dino) with a heap of Saurus with polearms on top. A Lizard answer to the old Empire warwagon or the newer enormous chariots.

Two lizards, horned or cold ones (I don't care which) harnessed together. Lashed side by side they can carry a platform with four Skinks. This is a LM answer to a chariot.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

This is a LM answer to a chariot.

I thought that was a Stegadon.

 

[pendrake]

I thought that was a Stegadon.

It is sorta. Except compared to a chariot a Steg is way bigger, Large Target and all that. I was trying for the equivalent of two horses and 2-4 guys.

 

[Scalenex]

Normally I don't like hijacking, but this is a worthy topic.

I think lists would be TOO uconventional if you could take Bastiladons as Core. Then you could run a list with no cavalry or infantry at all. wiggy. Kroxigor Core would step on the toes of Ogres.

Swarm Core would open up the possibility of 100% your Core tax spent on Swarms which would almost as wacky as monster Core.

Cold One Cavalry or Horned One Cavalry as Core would open up lots of army options without drastically changing the basic chemistry or stepping on any other army's core niche.

 

[Kcibrihp-Esurc]

*Cough*bringbackhornedones!*cough*

My one problem with that is they used to only be in the Southlands and they had no ranged weapons!

 

[Koranot]

I think Saurus are fine as long as you do not play against avoidance armys and avoid certain matchups. They should win or at least draw against most other core except chaos warriors and savage orc big uns. I use a unit of 30 to 35 and rarely loose the unit. They are great against Skaven to blow through slaves and with a WD slann you have a lot of options to buff them.

Considering new core choices, I feel that we can get a lot of varity with our three choices since they are so different from each other.

If I had to add another core choice I would choose something mundane like red crested skinks:
-Skinks without javelins but with additional hand weapon, devastating charge and +1 WS and AS
-6 points can be upgraded to poison for 2 points but can not take kroxigors

IMO such a unit would be different enough to skinks and saurus, is already presented in the fluff and can easily be build from the current skink box.