Discussion Let's Talk Fimir

[Scalenex]

So the Saurus warriors once went out en masse and exterminated the creatures deemed Anathema to the Old One's plan. Clearly the failed abysmally to exterminate the Beastmen and greenskins. The Skaven emerged after the purge. The completely dead races are obviously unknown, but the Fimir are different. They are mostly dead and eking out their dwindling generations on the edge of civilization far from the Temple Cities of the First Children of the Old Ones.

They are humanoid reptilian with Cold blooded psychology and a strong magical aptitude. They have a fondness for being reclusive in wet places. They want to erode the barriers between the physical world and the Chaos Realms to regain the favor of the Dark Gods whereas the Slann want to strengthen said barriers.

That's too much common ground to ignore.

Not every enemy of the Forces of Order needs to attack with endless hordes. Sometimes the badguys are the underdog. While they can't challenge Lustria or the Southlands, surely they harbor dreams of revenge. Lizardmen traveling the Old World may be at a disadvantage to their ancient foes. Scheming underdogs fight a lot more differently than ravening hordes.

Also, the Fimir can legitimately see themselves as victims. Their rightful place was destroyed by the usurping Liizardmen created by the so-called Old Ones. That gives them a desperation and tenacity not seen in the other Forces of Destruction who tend to be motivated by blood lust or arrogance.

Is there any official GW fluff on these guys outside the short descriptions Storm of Magic and Monstrous Arcanum books? This is a fluff angle I'd like to explore.

 

[Fhanados]

I've loved the Fimir since Hero Quest, but sadly I don't have much info on them. I believe their last official appearance before making a cameo in Storm of Magic and Monstrous Arcanum was in 3rd edition?

If I remember right they're not really reptiles, but have a reptilian appearance and they have a caste system kind of opposite of lizardmen - the smaller ones are less intelligent and generally used as slaves and fodder and the bigger ones are smarter as well as being the warrior caste.

Each clan only has a single female, who is their undisputed leader and a powerful spellcaster who draws upon dark swampy magic. There's also a caste of male spellcasters who's focus is on demonology and dark magic.

Fimir use human slaves for a lot of terrible things: food, ritual sacrifice, slave labour, sport etc. Most horrifyingly is that Fimir reproduced through... uhh... lets say "involuntary impregnation" of human females. Not quite sure how that worked in pre-human eras, since they're older than the human race is (I think).

Anyway that's all I know. It might be fun to tie them in as some kind of dark counterpart to the Lizardmen. In my own fluff the Saurus are descended from Troglodytes (well... genetic descendants anyway, chopped and changed by the Old Ones). Maybe the Fimir are another evolutionary branch of the same progenitors?

 

[spawning of Bob]

Sorry for the late reply Scaly, I had a thoughtful thing written, then the computer ate my homework.

Fortunately I am an authority on Fimir because, I too, have the SoM book AND access to a fertile imagination.


Fimir, the Spawning of Bob way:

They see the unseen. They worshiped Chaos Gods BEFORE the great cataclysm, ie another dimension.

They take the long view. Cold blooded and impossibly old. The Old Ones came and went, races rise and fall. These Human Chaos upstarts will do likewise and the Fimir will be top of the heap again. They would do something that looks petty / illogical / suicidal to bring forward their supremacy by one tiny increment. They've got all day. They will wear everyone else down like a stream wears down a stone.

They will happily destroy "allies" The warmblooded Chaos Upstarts have drawn the eyes (up to three each) and blessings of the Fimir' Gods. Grrr.

Their magic is cruder, but no less effective (compare Malazan magic to the magic on the other continent that the new gods never arrived at, in Steven Erikson's stuff). New magic can be subtle, devious, finessed. The Fimir stuff is an (effective) blunt instrument.

They see far The inexplicable things they do (kill an ally, spare a foe) can come to fruition centuries later. "I shall spare you, because by doing so your Great Grandson* will win second place in a beauty competition. By this means, he will be empowered to purchase Mayfair and Park Lane and place hotels thereupon. All shall become destitute and weep. Thereafter, those who were humbled shall cast down the hotels and the board upon which they stand. The little dog, which is everyone's favourite, will be lost under the sofa forever. Yet more weeping shall ensue as one of your descendants will be forced to choose between the hat and the boot. By this act of "mercy" shall I find Slaanesh's favour. Mwah ha ha ha ha ha!"







* This example does not apply to Lizardmen. For more information, please refer to "How a Baby is Made" by Per Holm Knudsen, 1973

 

[Scalenex]

I've loved the Fimir since Hero Quest, but sadly I don't have much info on them. I believe their last official appearance before making a cameo in Storm of Magic and Monstrous Arcanum was in 3rd edition?

If I remember right they're not really reptiles, but have a reptilian appearance and they have a caste system kind of opposite of lizardmen - the smaller ones are less intelligent and generally used as slaves and fodder and the bigger ones are smarter as well as being the warrior caste.

Well Lizardmen have castes (at least mine do), and they aren't really reptiles anyway. They breed like exogenic amphibians.

Each clan only has a single female, who is their undisputed leader and a powerful spellcaster who draws upon dark swampy magic. There's also a caste of male spellcasters who's focus is on demonology and dark magic.

Fimir use human slaves for a lot of terrible things: food, ritual sacrifice, slave labour, sport etc. Most horrifyingly is that Fimir reproduced through... uhh... lets say "involuntary impregnation" of human females. Not quite sure how that worked in pre-human eras, since they're older than the human race is (I think).

Uggh, that's the hack story used by the laziest fantasy/sci-fi writers. Also how does that work if they are ruled by females?

Anyway that's all I know. It might be fun to tie them in as some kind of dark counterpart to the Lizardmen. In my own fluff the Saurus are descended from Troglodytes (well... genetic descendants anyway, chopped and changed by the Old Ones). Maybe the Fimir are another evolutionary branch of the same progenitors?

That's a worthy angle.

Sorry for the late reply Scaly, I had a thoughtful thing written, then the computer ate my homework.

Fortunately I am an authority on Fimir because, I too, have the SoM book AND access to a fertile imagination.


Fimir, the Spawning of Bob way:

They see the unseen. They worshiped Chaos Gods BEFORE the great cataclysm, ie another dimension.

I like it, that opens up a good justification for clairvoyance based super powers.

They take the long view

. Cold blooded and impossibly old. The Old Ones came and went, races rise and fall. These Human Chaos upstarts will do likewise and the Fimir will be top of the heap again. They would do something that looks petty / illogical / suicidal to bring forward their supremacy by one tiny increment. They've got all day. They will wear everyone else down like a stream wears down a stone.

Also good, though there should always be some impatient mavericks.

They will happily destroy "allies"

The warmblooded Chaos Upstarts have drawn the eyes (up to three each) and blessings of the Fimir' Gods. Grrr.

Almost goes without saying. The only Force of Destruction race that can even sort of play nice amongst their allies is Chaos Dwarfs.

Their magic is cruder, but no less effective

(compare Malazan magic to the magic on the other continent that the new gods never arrived at, in Steven Erikson's stuff). New magic can be subtle, devious, finessed. The Fimir stuff is an (effective) blunt instrument.

Fitting, but it goes against the grain for their clairvoyance and their long term view of things. I figured they'd be subtle in most things, magic included.

They see far

The inexplicable things they do (kill an ally, spare a foe) can come to fruition centuries later. "I shall spare you, because by doing so your Great Grandson* will win second place in a beauty competition. By this means, he will be empowered to purchase Mayfair and Park Lane and place hotels thereupon. All shall become destitute and weep. Thereafter, those who were humbled shall cast down the hotels and the board upon which they stand. The little dog, which is everyone's favourite, will be lost under the sofa forever. Yet more weeping shall ensue as one of your descendants will be forced to choose between the hat and the boot. By this act of "mercy" shall I find Slaanesh's favour. Mwah ha ha ha ha ha!"

I want Monopoly to go extinct. The only reason people buy it now is they remember playing it (briefly) as kids before they grew out of it. Now that we have Dominion, Settlers of Catan, Seven Wonders and ihundreds of board games better than Monopoly (mostly European created), Monopoly need never be plyaed again!

 

[spawning of Bob]

Who is talking about monopoly, weirdo?

This is a warhammer forum.

Duhh!

 

[RoseThorn]

Fimir use human slaves for a lot of terrible things: food, ritual sacrifice, slave labour, sport etc. Most horrifyingly is that Fimir reproduced through... uhh... lets say "involuntary impregnation" of human females. Not quite sure how that worked in pre-human eras, since they're older than the human race is (I think).

Normally, I'd agree with @Scalenex 's opinion of this, but here's an idea.
So, the Fimir are servants of Chaos, and they love messing with the biology of their followers. So, what happened was, after the Great Catastrophe, the Fimir were genetically scarred by the events, almost all the females rendered infertile, and so few that they would hit a genetic bottleneck, even if they could breed. So they attempted to recreate the spawning pools of the First, but failed for their magic was for destruction and change, not creation. So they captured several human females, and used their magic to change their reproductive system, turning them into living wombs for the Fimir, probagating the species, allowing them to escape the infertility, and the genetic bottleneck. The Fimir hid after establishing a breeding population of humans, and established castes based on the purity of a bloodline. The smaller, weaker, less intelligent Fimir were human-fimir hybrids, generations of impure breeding changing them, while the larger, smarter Fimir were more pure, while they may have some human ancestry, they also had true blooded Fimir females in their bloodline, and so they became like twisted mirrors of the First in yet another way, for the first had their Spawning pools, and the fimir had their living wombs.

 

[Scalenex]

If Fimir implants they are just parasites in human hosts why not let Fimir use any human host male or female, and avoid unfortunate implications.

 

[Warden]

I can't find any old official GW fluff on the Fimir, only some new stuff from warhammer armies project,:

http://battlereporter.freeforums.org/fimir-warhammer-fantasy-battle-army-book-pdf-t3511.html

On the plus side, this guy did a pretty good article on them: http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2014/04/07/bizarre-bestiary-fimir/
And I found a fairly recent and very well done Fimir army too, best one I have seen: http://mrsaturdaysmumblings.blogspot.ie/p/army-showcase-fimir-of-fir-domhan.html

I like the idea that they see themselves as the "rightful" rulers of the world, a place "usurped" by the Lizardmen. Maybe they do share a similar, reptilian "cold-blooded" heritage that diverged when the Old Ones showed up and used the ancestors of the present-day Lizardmen to create the current Lizardmen castes of saurus, skinks, and kroxigors, while leaving the Fimir to go extinct.

 

[Bowser]

I just realized I have a Fimir model, from the hero quest board game:

 

[pendrake]

I have a handful of those HeroQuest fimirs. I had no idea what they were but they were included with some goblins.

I figure they did not survive the End Times & Obliteration of the Worlde.

 

[The Sauric Ace]

The Fimir seems rather interesting, take the rape to the aliens level and it would actually work far better. Without having the unfortunately other implications.
I like the article Warden linked to it gives a very good description of the whole creation process and why someone like me, hasn't heard about them before
They seems like a fun counter part to the lizard of Lustria and they are different enough for them to see a comeback. Let's make them a target for some more fluff

 

[Y'ttar Scaletail]

I recall in the Animosity 6 Campaign (so defo not official fluff) there was a Fimir figurehead who was a priest of Malal (the campaign story was that the Chaos Wastes were actually retreating with the 4 Gods weakening after Malal awoke in one of the earlier campaigns. Essentially there were the Chaos faction who were trying to prevent the Four from falling, the Sigmarites who were trying to ascend Sigmar with the aid of a Joan of Arc-esque saintly figure, the Orcs who were trying to find Da Wun Troo Git and ascend Gork and/or Mork, Dwarfs who were trying to reopen the underway and get a hold back, and (I think that was it) the Skaven who were trying to do ascend the Horned Rat.)

The Fimir played an important part in the campaign in the eventual destruction of the Chaos Gods (with Sigmar, Gork and/or Mork, a hidden Tzeentch, and the Horned Rat iirc becoming the new Four) and then I think was mercy killed by Sigmar's saint.

 

[Scalenex]

I've been revisiting my old short story entries and I've been analyzing why my story involving Fimir fell below what I believe to be my usual standard. Part of it was rushed writing and poor structure, but I realized a bigger problem. The intent was to make the Fimir scary because of the Mars Needs Women trope, but that doesn't make them scary to Lizardmen. When I put myself in the mind of a Skink, I find Fimir terrifying but I need to properly explain to readers why.

When Lizardmen deal with everyone else, it's about foolish warmbloods or strangely impressive warmbloods or tainted warmbloods whatever. The Lizardmen came First with a capital F. No matter how bad things seem the Lizardmen know they are better than their warmblooded opponents. Daemons are different, they represent everything impure that the First are not.

Fimir are cold blooded semi-aquatic reptiles. They have a caste system with subtypes similar to Skinks/Saurus/Kroxigor. They are ruled by magic wielding priests that are practically worshipped. Their whole lives revolve around their religious duties. Their society and traditions are impossibly ancient when compared to the other races of the Warhammer world.

What is scary is to look into the face of Chaos of see yourself reflected.

 

[discomute]

i need to play some hero quest

 

[Bowser]

i need to play some hero quest

Totally agree with this statement! Such a good game!

 

[Warden]

I've been revisiting my old short story entries and I've been analyzing why my story involving Fimir fell below what I believe to be my usual standard. Part of it was rushed writing and poor structure, but I realized a bigger problem. The intent was to make the Fimir scary because of the Mars Needs Women trope, but that doesn't make them scary to Lizardmen. When I put myself in the mind of a Skink, I find Fimir terrifying but I need to properly explain to readers why.

When Lizardmen deal with everyone else, it's about foolish warmbloods or strangely impressive warmbloods or tainted warmbloods whatever. The Lizardmen came First with a capital F. No matter how bad things seem the Lizardmen know they are better than their warmblooded opponents. Daemons are different, they represent everything impure that the First are not.

Fimir are cold blooded semi-aquatic reptiles. They have a caste system with subtypes similar to Skinks/Saurus/Kroxigor. They are ruled by magic wielding priests that are practically worshipped. Their whole lives revolve around their religious duties. Their society and traditions are impossibly ancient when compared to the other races of the Warhammer world.

What is scary is to look into the face of Chaos of see yourself reflected.

Gold.

I really like this, it makes perfect sense why the Lizardmen would hate/fear the Fimir. Dark reflection of themselves, their own fate if evolution had been just a little bit different, or what had happened it they had sold their souls to the dark powers. I really the explanation you have laid out here.

Would the Lizardmen as a whole know about the Fimir's existence, or would it be something that the Slann and the higher skink priests would keep secret from the general populace? Or maybe it could just be rumors circulating among general Lizard society without actually being proven or validated; with older skinks telling young spawnlings scary stories of the chaos-worshipping lizard-creatures that live in swamps to scare them around campfires? Or even the lizard-men version of Bigfoot or the Loch-ness Monster?

Or on the opposite side, could the Lizardmen be actively trying to oppose the Fimir over the centuries since the Fall, like they have with all other enemies to the Great Plan and supporters of the Ancient Enemy? They could consider the Fimir to be terrifying traitors, that for whatever reason have been impossibly to eradicate from the planet. Unlike the Orcs, who are just stupid and tough, innumerable fighters, the Fimir are more insidious opponents who work from behind the schemes, hard to spot but met with switch retribution when discovered? Or just so secretive and powerful the Lizardmen can't possible hope to destroy them anymore because the power of the Slann and the Lizardmen over the geomantic web has been so depleted over the centuries?

 

[Bowser]

I just found out that Fimir are canon in AOS. Not bad either. Could definitely write some fluff for these guys.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Aha, the Fimir! How fortunate that I have discovered this thread at this particular time...

I have always thought of the Fimir more as amphibians than reptiles, given their boggy homelands, their hatred of sunlight (which dries amphibian skin) and their usage of mist to cover their approach (mist contains evaporated water, so could be used as a mobile rehydration agent). Of late I've been writing my own army list for them to reinvent the AoS Kruleboyz range as what should have been a Fimir range, as their swampy teaser trailers plus their common AoS allegiance produced a huge opportunity to resurrect them, but as per 90% of the time GW failed to see it (or maybe they did, and Kruleboyz are meant to be a subpar replacement of Fimir ). I mean GW resurrected Genestealer Cults quite a while back, and Fimir are pretty much the Fantasy version of Genestealer Cults in that both have been given *unfortunate* connotations with regards to their methods of reproducing in the past, but that doesn't mean they should be abandoned forever, particularly when they have a devoted following. There is always a solution...

Retcon!

And for any of you who might object to this, GW has been retconning stuff in their major game systems they didn't like and/or that disagreed with consumers ever since Fantasy started developing from that catch-all set of wargames rules that existed from 1st to 3rd Editions. It isn't as if one more retcon would be a major travesty, and if it means bringing back a cult classic army for modern audiences to enjoy, all the better.

First, the reproduction issue - some like KevinC over on EEFL have kept the original version alive (and, in his case made it even darker so that the birthing of the offspring bears similarity to a certain scene from Alien) to preserve the Fimir's dark and vile nature, but given the obvious sensitivity of the subject and the failure of the Fimir being mainly because of that, I think it would be best to alter this, which could be done in two ways:

• A slight retcon - 1d4Chan's article on Fimir spoke in one passage from an alternative source I forget the name of where the Fimir Balefiends impregnate human women using magic to create the offspring inside them, rather than the 'normal' method. This would be the least damaging to existing Warhammer lore and at the same time friendlier to the sanity of modern audiences. I also like the particular passage in question specifying that the Fimir would actually treat the human women relatively well during their existence as birthing aids, which from a cold logical point of view makes sense given that in order for your species to have healthy offspring and thus survive for future generations, the mothers also need to be kept healthy.
• A major retcon - deleting the entire lore passage and replacing it with something else (introducing rare fertile Fimir females being the obvious replacement, but perhaps an alternative method such as incubation pods, magical clones or some other would all work). This would be the most damaging to the existing lore of course, but would be less lazy in the eye of @Scalenex, would allow for a more creative and audience-friendly alternative, and it would also avoid the plothole of Fimir offspring born from human women being 100% pure Fimir, when they would surely be a hybrid of Fimir and human, as Genestealer Hybrids are in 40K.

 

[Bowser]

Aha, the Fimir! How fortunate that I have discovered this thread at this particular time...

I have always thought of the Fimir more as amphibians than reptiles, given their boggy homelands, their hatred of sunlight (which dries amphibian skin) and their usage of mist to cover their approach (mist contains evaporated water, so could be used as a mobile rehydration agent). Of late I've been writing my own army list for them to reinvent the AoS Kruleboyz range as what should have been a Fimir range, as their swampy teaser trailers plus their common AoS allegiance produced a huge opportunity to resurrect them, but as per 90% of the time GW failed to see it (or maybe they did, and Kruleboyz are meant to be a subpar replacement of Fimir ). I mean GW resurrected Genestealer Cults quite a while back, and Fimir are pretty much the Fantasy version of Genestealer Cults in that both have been given *unfortunate* connotations with regards to their methods of reproducing in the past, but that doesn't mean they should be abandoned forever, particularly when they have a devoted following. There is always a solution...

Retcon!

And for any of you who might object to this, GW has been retconning stuff in their major game systems they didn't like and/or that disagreed with consumers ever since Fantasy started developing from that catch-all set of wargames rules that existed from 1st to 3rd Editions. It isn't as if one more retcon would be a major travesty, and if it means bringing back a cult classic army for modern audiences to enjoy, all the better.

First, the reproduction issue - some like KevinC over on EEFL have kept the original version alive (and, in his case made it even darker so that the birthing of the offspring bears similarity to a certain scene from Alien) to preserve the Fimir's dark and vile nature, but given the obvious sensitivity of the subject and the failure of the Fimir being mainly because of that, I think it would be best to alter this, which could be done in two ways:

• A slight retcon - 1d4Chan's article on Fimir spoke in one passage from an alternative source I forget the name of where the Fimir Balefiends impregnate human women using magic to create the offspring inside them, rather than the 'normal' method. This would be the least damaging to existing Warhammer lore and at the same time friendlier to the sanity of modern audiences. I also like the particular passage in question specifying that the Fimir would actually treat the human women relatively well during their existence as birthing aids, which from a cold logical point of view makes sense given that in order for your species to have healthy offspring and thus survive for future generations, the mothers also need to be kept healthy.
• A major retcon - deleting the entire lore passage and replacing it with something else (introducing rare fertile Fimir females being the obvious replacement, but perhaps an alternative method such as incubation pods, magical clones or some other would all work). This would be the most damaging to the existing lore of course, but would be less lazy in the eye of @Scalenex, would allow for a more creative and audience-friendly alternative, and it would also avoid the plothole of Fimir offspring born from human women being 100% pure Fimir, when they would surely be a hybrid of Fimir and human, as Genestealer Hybrids are in 40K.

I think for a major retcon, really dig into the amphibious nature and look to Jurassic Park. Have the Fimir simply be able to change their sex in order to produce offspring.