7th Ed. What lore vs who 7th ed

[Revered_Guardian]

well, seing as the old thread was resurrected, and armies have gained things and lost them, I thought I'd start one for 7th edition.

So, what lore do you choose vs wich enemies

 

[TheAncientOne]

I don't really know, other than that I love shadow vs. almost anything, especially Wood Elves because Dryads, wardancers,etc. don't do well when charged(Steed of shadows), but if they attack first it can get ugly. Also Life vs. Wood Elves to blast him w/ his own terrain.
Other than that basically not fire vs. high elves, not metal vs. really anything, and Light vs. Undead/Demons.
(Most of this is very obvious, and has been stated before, I just thought I'd put it out there again)
These are just my opinions, but I don't have a very good track record, so I'd probably get advice from others.

 

[novatomato]

@TheAncientOne no metal really? what about against Dwarfs, Brets or WoC because against them the spirit of the forge is completely killer, and rule of burning lead is the best Fighter hero killing spell ever. Transmutation of Lead is one of the best support spells versus anyone.

Personally I take heavens against everything (I rarely field a slaan).

 

[Dumbledore]

metal is one of the strongest lores IMO, though it can only be used against certain armies but is so strong in those cases (dwarves empire brettonia and ofc WOC)

 

[TheAncientOne]

One other thing;
Versus wood elves, lore of fire only really works against treemen and treekin(but is still VERY strong), because dryads only have 1 wound each.
The EOTGs however(if I remember correctly), does D6 Str5 instead of 4 against undead, demons, AND Forest Spirits(which im pretty sure are Dryads, Treemen, Treekin, and some other wood elves)
And yes, novatomato, I agree w/ you there, but I find that other lores just are more useful:
Ex.Creeping Death:24" 3D6 Str1(Yes, I know, str 1) NO ARMOR SAVES. Wounding very few times (say like 3-5, but pretty much instant kill )
Also, Pit of Shades: Small template, take initiative test or die. Dwarves have low initiative, and that as well(including partials) will probably kill 2-5 guys. Even heroes don't get any saves. (I don't know if they still get look out sir, though )
That's just my opinion, and I don't use metal much, so maybe ill try it a bit more.
Well, now I have something to think about.

 

[TheAncientOne]

Im re-reading all the spell lores and evaluating how good they are, and reading metal again 3 times, i realise it's pretty good, not as great against some armies, but still great, so thank you nova.
In shadows, there is 1 spell i do not like: Crown of Taidron. It hits all units, even yours , but steed of shadows is awesome.
In beast, most work well, but crow's feast is basically a weak fiery blast, etc., but is still ok.
In heavens, I don't like Second sign of Amul, It only gives you D3 Rerolls, but, I guess, that COULD in reality save a character, but you don't really know when that'll happen. OOOOOOOOHHH.... Re-rolling stegadon impact hits ...... No more beef about second sign.
Also, comet of Casandora can be deadly. I rolled bad, and it went of on turn 4, and i got a 4 so it went 16" and killed most of BOTH our armies, LOL . The other 2 times in the game i used it though, it blew up like 2", so it did nothing.
Light works great against both demons and undead(Surprise, surprise ), and can heal your units. Not really any bad stuff there.
Life is ok, especially for wood elves, kill them in their own terrain, as well as heal ALL wounds on 7+
Death is good as well, destroying LD, causing fear, stealing life , as well as having magic missiles.
And last(not first) Fire . NOT my fav, even though powerful. Has nothing subtle, nothing that bolsters your troop, moves you, gains life, etc.
So, that's my overview. I don't really have favs, cuz some work better different times, in different situations.
Also, never give your slann heavens, you already have cheap level 1,2, or effectively level 3(EoTGs+ Plaque of tepok + lvl 2 upgrade) heavens casters.
PS: EoTGs+ Plaque+ 5+Ward = Armor save2+/Ward save5+ Lvl 3 wizard w/ giant triceratops w/ big magic lazer YAY!!!

 

[Grifthin]

Last night I had the extreme pleasure of using the lore of light for the first time - My Opponent - Vampire counts.

Things that where awesome -
Burning alignment vs rank and file Skellies
Cleansing Flare
Burning gaze
and my personal favourite - Hitting a unit with a vamp with Dazzeling light, reducing the WS to 1, and getting the Vamp pasted by a ancient steg.

S6 Against undead is just so damn wrong, and the ITP spell just Ruined his day. I used becalming cognition - his Lvl 4 Vamp was using 1 dice for invocation of nehek - casting about nine times a round. He discarded about 2-4 6's per round, and combined with my dispels He didn't raise much.

Awesome, awesome lore.

 

[novatomato]

@TheAncientOne I know the pain that can be comet of Casandora, in my last game I got it off on the first turn, and did not show up until there were 6 counters, I rolled a 6 for 36 inches!! Every unit in the game was hit and the only things surviving where my Engine and priest, and my two units of saurus warriors.

 

[Lycanthrope]

@TheAncientOne I know the pain that can be comet of Casandora, in my last game I got it off on the first turn, and did not show up until there were 6 counters, I rolled a 6 for 36 inches!! Every unit in the game was hit and the only things surviving where my Engine and priest, and my two units of saurus warriors.

Hahaha. Would that be what you call a "game breaker"?

 

[hellbreaker]

@TheAncientOne I know the pain that can be comet of Casandora, in my last game I got it off on the first turn, and did not show up until there were 6 counters, I rolled a 6 for 36 inches!! Every unit in the game was hit and the only things surviving where my Engine and priest, and my two units of saurus warriors.

Hahaha. Would that be what you call a "game breaker"?

Pretty much, yes.
I despise comet of cassandora and don't use it, I want uranon's thunderbolt and forked lightning...

Portent of far is a wonderful spell too, really all those 1's are gonna regret that they exist.

My personal list of useful magic lores.

Metal - Good vs Everything except wood elves...

Life - Decent vs wood elves and dwarfs/empire gun lines...

Light - Good vs undead, not daemons, they got their cheesy banner of "go on, use light and you die" banner

Heavens - Decent against pretty much anything, good support spells(portent of far and celestial shield, I don't like second sign)

Fire - Good vs everything with light armour or no armour(wood elves)

Shadows - Decent vs everything

Death - <insert comment from a user>

Beasts - I don't remember much of this lore, but if I'm correct it should be quite good vs beastmen...

That's all lores I think...

Cheers!

 

[Strim]

Here's something i tried: slann with lore of beasts and scar-veteran with charm of the jaguar warrior; you should have seen the face of my opponent (a vampire count) when he saw the mega-scar vet flying towards his super vampire in the unit of mega-cavalry (the singular one, don't know it's translation in english); he was kicked with 7 attacks S7... (and T6 is really great, only steggies and dragons have that... ), and it was in the first turn! Absolutely great.

But then i think fire, metal and heavens are the ones to use (light against undead and wood-elves, 'cos as hellbreaker said, daemons have that horrible banner of them... (i hate it)

And i'm going to recommend lore of beast for a change if you want to have real fun against almost everything: you have the first one, which is simply great to upgrade a flying scar veteran or old blood; then you have a giant bow and a missile, and 2 of the bests spells in the game: one making a cavalry not able to move and one making a beast (dragon, valgurf or something like that) unable to move.

 

[IronShark]

And i'm going to recommend lore of beast for a change if you want to have real fun against almost everything:

Seconded.

Beasts is a good all-round lore. Bear's Anger is definitely the best of the Character boosting spells, especially nice because it can be cast on other characters. A Saurus hero with 7 S7 attacks will make a mess of just about anything. The two missile spells are okay, and between them threaten anything. One high strength ignore armor, one low strength and multiple hits.

I think Beast Cowers is one of the best spells in the game, especially with it's very modest casting dice, unlimited range, no LOS required. Most armies have at least one big bad cavalry or monster unit, or extremely annoying and fast moving fast cav, and having it sit there and do nothing can be huge.

Oxen Stands and Wolf Hunts can be very useful in certain situations. Really, movement spells are one of the most powerful type of spells out there. Ask any Vampire player how awesome Van Hels Danse is. While Wolf's 2D6" isn't quite as good as Van Hel's 8" move, Wolf Hunt's has a 24" range. Getting an unexpected magic charge in with a stegadon or some Cold Ones could be game-winning.


The problem with Beast though, is that while it's generally a good lore, it's not often the best lore. EG, facing Warriors of Chaos? Beasts is good; Beast Cowers on the Knights, Spear on the Warriors, Crows on the Marauders, Anger, Oxen, and Wolf all useful depending on the situation. But Metal is probably better. Or if you're fighting other Lizardmen, Spear the Saurus, Cower the Stegadons, Crow some Skinks... But then if you're fighting Lizardmen, it's hard to turn down Pit of Shades...

So, if you want to mix things up a bit, take some Lore of Beasts. It's a solid choice even though it may not be the absolute best lore for any one army. And if you're not sure what lore to take, it's hard to go wrong with Beasts.

 

[TheAncientOne]

OOOOOOOOHHH.... Re-rolling stegadon impact hits ...... No more beef about second sign.

I was wrong, this can only be used for rmr svs, hits, wounds, etc.

 

[Magic_karl]

I've had no luck with the lore of heavens so far... I would definately not choose it for a Slann as it is. I think anything else I can say has already been said much better, but heavens doesn't work for me.

 

[Sashu]

Lore’s of Magic for Lizardmen in 7th Edition

There are 8 different lore’s that you can take with a Slann and there are reasons to take just about any of them. This list is going to be organized by opponents army style rather than the lore’s them selves.

1) Gun Line – Life
a. What Type of List – A gun line is common archetype list to see. Most commonly run by either empire or dwarves. The army will typically have 4 or more war machines and several shooting units. You may want to take metal against a dwarf gunline for reasons listed below.
b. Life
i. Why - The lore of life is the single most effective lore against gun lines. The spells are cheap yet they can hit almost any unit on the board making them very effective.
ii. Spells
1. Mistress of the Marsh - Useless, worst spell in the lore… to bad its the number one spell
2. Master of the Wood – It is a common tactic to hide on or two missile units in the woods. This spell will allow you to neutralize them fairly well. It is basically a magic missile that can hit anyone near the woods.
3. Gift of Life – Best spell in the lore. As a lizardmen army you will have stegadons most of the time. A gun line will spend most of their shooting trying to kill them. You need to use this spell to heal them back up. Nothing makes a dwarf player pull out his beard then getting a stegadon back up to 5 wounds.
4. Howler Wind – Also an AMAZING spell. Anything within 12” of your slann can only be hit by war machines. Fabulous.
5. The Rain Lord – The ability to stop a units shooting in terms of effectiveness is great. This allows you to endure even more of the shooting.
6. Master of Stone – Beautiful against war machines. Frequently these units are deployed on hills. This means you get a higher strength. This higher strength means you will almost always kill the crew if you allocate to them, and you have a good chance of wounding the machine.

2) Undead – Light
a. What type of List - Vampires or Tomb Kings
b. Light
i. Why – The high strength from the magic missiles allows you to do some serous damage to the important units in your opponents army.
ii. Spells
1. Burning Gaze – Great Spell. It’s a basic magic missile with a higher strength. Target it at your opponents most valuable units. Don’t worry about skeletons etc. The bonus strength will make it so you can kill even the toughest troops.
2. Pha’s Illumiation – Sometimes useful to cast on a champion or skink but otherwise not much use.
3. Healing energy – Healing your steagdons or characters is great.
4. Dazzling Brightness – This unit will shut down just about any unit that would be attacking you. Make troops need 5’s to hit stops all but the most powerful units. Another trick with this spell is to use it on a vampire lord with the helm of commandment to stop people from using his WS.
5. Guardian Light – Stopping all those fear checks is helpful for lizards; however, the fact that you will not be outnumbered by a fear causing enemy is even more valuable.
6. Cleansing Flare – The ablity to hit that many units, with that high of a strength will scare any opponent. At the same time, while it is good, it isn’t great, try dropping it first to force your opponent to use dice and scrolls giving you your choice of spells for the rest of the phase IE Dazzling Brightness and Guardian Light.

3) Daemons – Fire or Death
a. Who – Umm… Daemons?
b. Fire – The number of magic missiles makes this lore great.
i. Why – Lost of magic missiles that can kill daemons. Daemons hit hard but once they die they don’t come back. The flame lets you get past the regen that is common in the army.
1. Fireball – Basic Magic Missile
2. Flaming Sword - Junk
3. Burning Head – Not usefull because Deamons don’t pani.
4. Fiery Blast – Great Spell, strong Magic Missile
5. Conflagration of Doom – Not that great. Its basically a Fiery Blast with a higher casting value.
6. Wall of Fire – Great for character killing and doing damage to a big unit. IT also stops the unit from moving unless your opponent wants to devote a lot of dice to stopping it.

c. Death –
i. Two good magic missiles and the ability to make your troops cause fear neutralizes the daemonic fear advantage.
1. Dark Hand of Death – Basic Magic Missile
2. Steal Soul – Great for killing heralds
3. Wind of Death – Great Magic Missile
4. Walking Death – Allows you to stop your opponent from using his fear advantage.
5. Doom and Darkness – Useless.
6. Drain Life – Quite a bit of damage to everyone around.

d. Why NOT Light – This is a common question, why NOT take light? Daemons have a magic item that makes you miscast on any spell from light on any double. This item is taking in 90% of lists. If you actually want to cast spells rather than just miscast, don’t take light.

4) Heavily Armored – Metal
a. Who – Dwarves, Chaos, Bretonians, just about any list where the important parts of the list have a 4+ save.
b. Metal
i. Why – You get to ignore those saves with two of the spells in the lore.
1. Rule of Burning Iron – Great for sniping champions, army standards, or mages.
2. Commandment of Brass – Can stop war machines, not that great.
3. Transmutation of Lead – This spell neutralizes an enemy unit. Even the nastiest unit will struggle with a Saurus unit at this point.
4. Distillation of Molten Silver – Great Magic Missile
5. Law of Gold – Great for killing really nasty magic items. Also, it doesn’t stop only one rune, it breaks ALL the runes on the item.
6. Spirit of the Forge – Best spell in the game. This spell will turn a unit of Chaos Knights into a fine mist. Expect a scroll.

5) Heavy Cav List – Metal or Beasts
a. Who – Any list that has lots of cav, so Brets, some empire builds, some chaos builds, some elf builds.
b. Metal
i. Why – See Heavily Armored
c. Beasts
i. Why – There are several spells in the list that stop your opponent or let you out maneuver them.
1. Bears Anger – Fun spell for a Saurus. I don’t have much faith due to the fact this spell is really a gimic. That one character won’t change the game very often.
2. Oxen Stands – Rallying is nice.
3. Crows Feast – Ok magic missile. Str 3 will struggle a lot of the time.
4. Beast Cowers – This may stop a unit from charging, but, if that unit is expected to be important expect a scroll.
5. Hunters Spear – Best spell in the lore. The ability to have a bolt thrower is great. Combine this with a skink priest to get LOS into a unit of knights flank and kill several of them with one shot.
6. Wolf Hunts – Moving is always great. Use this on your steagdons or CoR

6) Many Light Units – Death or Fire or Light
a. Who – Armies like wood elves or empire or dark elves. If your opponent has more than 12 deployments, this is usually his list style.
i. Death – The Magic missiles allow you to kill units or make them no longer effective. Combine this with Drain life and you can put a lot of hurt on your opponent. See above for the spells
ii. Fire – Once again lots of magic missiles. See above for details
iii. Light – These units usually have several units that are more important. If you can hit them with dazzling brightness the make them worthless. Combine this with Cleansing fire and you can do a lot of damage.

7) Hoard – Shadow or Death
a. Who – Any army with 150+ models. Usually Goblins or Skaven. Note – Magic missiles are USELESS against these lists. They are meant to take the losses.
b. Shadow
i. Why – Few lores have spells that are effective against these lists.
ii. Spells
1. Steed of Shadows – If you need to kill one model you can throw a saurus at it, otherwise not worth much.
2. Creeping Death – Waste. The str is so low you have to be lucky to kill anything.
3. Crown of Taidron – To much damage to your own troops.
4. Shades of Death – Great for causing your opponent to take psyc tests
5. Unseen Lurker – Movement is great and allows you to get a unit into their flank and start rolling them.
6. Pit of Shades – Not that effective.
c. Death
i. Why – The spells that reduce LD and stop their general from spreading his LD making the army have to use their own crappy LD. Combine this with the ability to make a unit cause fear/terror and you can make half of his army run without ever getting into combat.

8) Magic Heavy – Death or Metal or Life
a. Who – Any magic heavy list, most commonly Vampires, Mortals, or High Elves
b. Death – The ability to target the mages is key. Doing 2 wounds to a level 2 kills him.
c. Metal – Against Chaos you can use the level 1 spell to snipe wizards.
d. Life – The ability to hit almost anywhere on the board lets you use your spells to hit mages that are hiding.


9) Army Specific Lores

a. Dark Elves – Consider taking metal or death for the ablity to target one model and kill whoever has the ring of hoteck.
b. Wood Elves – Light and death give you great spells to kill 2-3 units at once.
c. Night Goblins – Consider light or death to kill fanatics.


Notes on Using Magic Well

Target Priority
Choosing the right target is something that is hard to do. So I am putting a list of your targets you will want to target with damaging spells first.

1) Units that are soft and small – Skirmishers, or lone mages. These units can be crippled by a d6 str 4 hits.
2) Units that are about to lose a rank – If you have 2 units infront of you, a 22 man unit of goblins and a 40 man unit of goblins you need to choose on to magic missile. The better target is the smaller unit. Sure the big unit is scary; however, if you kill 12 models it is still as effective as it is at 40 men in close combat. If you hit the 22 man unit and kill 3 models, it has lost a rank bonus. This makes it so it has one less combat result, a key factor once close combat begins.
3) Units that can cause more panic checks – Look at where your opponents units are and think about where they will flee. If you can panic that unit, where will it run. If it will run somewhere that will make 3 more units test for panic it becomes a prime target.

Lore of Heavens – Portent of Far
Don’t use the re rolls when you need a good roll, but rather to stop a bad roll. Basiclly, if you need a 6 and you are thinking about using portent of far, don’t. Odds are you will still fail. Use it on something you need a 2 or a 3 on. Something like a stegadon needed to wound, or an armor save for a CoR or Temple Guard.

FIN

 

[thesecondman]

-Death against low leadership armies (empire, orcs and goblins). Doom and darkness bro, doom and darkness. Steed is ok as well, if you have a scar vet on foot.

-Metal against ANY ARMY with lots KNIGHTS (lots depends on your definition, work out victory points cost when he brings the army onto the table). The last spell of metal is unbelievably good. Against normal Knights, its "2D6 are slain on a 2+", basically. Really really, really good. Easy way to get many victory points.

-Fire against nd low toughness skirmish armies or block infantry armies (VCs and Tomb kings, wood elves, dark elves, other lizardmen) and everything else if the two above points are not especially relevant.

 

[thesecondman]

Additional - If you are fighting high elves and they have a big unit/ lots of Dragon Princes, beware that they are immune to fire spells (the Lore of Metal spells I mentioned above are fire spells, take something else if there ain't many more different knights in his army.