8th Ed. What are our best warmachine hunters in big games (3000pts)?

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Just trying to finish up an army list and I started wondering which unit would make the best warmachine hunter. I figure we have the following four choices (if I missed any please add to my list)...

1. Terradon Riders
-Strengths: fly, can't be frenzy baited
-Weaknesses: easy to kill, easy to panic
2. Ripperdactyl Riders
-Strengths: fly, hit pretty hard
-Weaknesses: glasshammer, frenzy on a flying unit with poor leadership
3. Chameleon Skinks
-Strengths: poison
-Weaknesses: in a large game there may not be enough space to scout them
4. Skink chief on a Terradon/Ripperdactyl
-Strengths: fly, better leadership, harder to wound than a unit of terradons/ripperdactyls
-Weaknesses: less wounds than a unit of terradons/ripperdactyls

So what is the best way to take out the warmachines that threaten our big dinos?

 

[Scalenex]

Re: What are our best warmachine hunters in big games (3000p

That's iffy. Chameleon Skinks aren't useless in grand armies since they are good at running interference but they are not very good war machine hunters.

My instinct would be to go with Terradons and/or Ripper chiefs. Units of Rippers seem too expensive to throw at war machines.

Another option is to magic them to death. I found Pit of Shades is handy in big points sized games. Even if it deviates you'll probably hit something and war machines auto-fail their initiative tests.

Net of Amytok, Iceshard Blizzard, and Pha's Protection all will slow war machines down. I imagine you can mitigate the fragility of flying war machine hunters by hexing the enemies BS shooting troops. That way you can mitigate the weaknesses of the flyers.

 

[Rettile]

Re: What are our best warmachine hunters in big games (3000p

I would not include rippers' frenzy in their weaknesses: they can dodge the problem with good conversions, and they're ItP

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Re: What are our best warmachine hunters in big games (3000p

@Scalenex: You make some great points. I think you're correct and I'm starting to lean towards a Terradon chief. Specifically, I'm thinking of using a build that GhostWarrior listed in another thread:

Skink Chief [Terradon, Light Armor, Spear, Enchanted Shield, Dragonbane Gem]

I like to consider magic as a backup, since I never know how the magic phase will pan out, and what focuses I may need to divert magic into.


@Rettile: Frenzy is a double edged sword, I feel it is simultaneously a great strength as well as a great weakness for the Rippers. Making frenzy checks at leadership 5, even with cold blooded, is a risky endeavor. The same with ItP, it's great that they will never panic, but nor can you flee from an unwanted charge. I feel frenzy is the one thing that is keeping me away from using Rippers.

 

[airjamy]

Re: What are our best warmachine hunters in big games (3000p

I always prefer the charmed shield against the odd cannonball or espacially bolt thrower, for the rest i also like the Chief the most. Give him an egg if you have points to spare, and see him going all James Bond on those backlines.

 

[n810]

Re: What are our best warmachine hunters in big games (3000p

How about a tooled up skink chief with cloak of feathers?
(he would be easy enough to hide behind terrain)
probably have to have him with other hunters though.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Re: What are our best warmachine hunters in big games (3000p

@airjamy: The charmed shield is a great option as well. I do like the 2+ save that the enchanted shield provides, and if my opponent feels like taking potshots at my 89pt chief... no problem, it keeps my more valuable stuff safe. In the end I think either choice is viable.

@n810: For the same point cost, the terradon is a far better option in my opinion. It just offers more advantages:

Cloak of feathers
-smaller model to hide behind terrain
-can hide and charge out of an infantry unit
-smaller footprint

Terradon:
-doesn't use up 35pts of your magic item allowance
-provides you with a S4 attack
-provides you with a S4 stomp
-adds +1 to your armour save
-prevents you from being stomped/thunderstomped
-gives you immunity to killing blow
-gives you drop rocks
-you cause fear
-you have the forest strider special rule

 

[GhostWarrior]

Re: What are our best warmachine hunters in big games (3000p

I would like to say that I generally disagree on Ripperdactyl Frenzy being a drawback when the unit has a specific target.

Don't forget that you can declare a charge before taking a Frenzy check. This is a big deal for a unit that is homing in on a specific, static target. You simply move to within charge range on your 1st turn (or if you're lucky, in your opening VG move), then you declare your charge in your next turn (or on Turn 1 if you went 2nd!).

In the off chance that you won't be in reasonable charge range of the machine (over 19" away, by my usual efforts), then you just turn the rippers to face away from the opponent (usually a full 180 degrees). It costs you 0 movement, and has 0 additional effect on your next turns move. In that next turn you then move to within range, and charge in the following turn.

In fact, I would say these guys are custom-built for war machine hunting:

1. They won't panic on the way in.
2. They have good stats in the right areas for fighting even above average crews (the elf and dwarf crews).
3. 4+ Armor is solid for a WM hunter
4.* When charging a War Machine, as the charger you have the opportunity to pick your overrun angle, which mitigates what I see as the biggest drawback of Frenzy - having to pursue/overrun.
5. They can fly over units that might block a charge from a ground hunter.

Their main drawback to me is just that the meta has evolved to include more Magic Missiles in response to elf dominance. These guys have a tough time standing up to a 2D6 Fireball equivalent, event with their 4+ save.

Their secondary drawback (which is Frenzy related) comes if you want to keep their charge targets flexible (either b/c you want to hide your intent, or you truly want to keep your options open). If you are facing the enemy, and you don't want to charge, they become a liability.

Good Generalship/movement, and thinking 1 turn in advance can really make these guys pay dividends.

*To make sure number 4 is very clear, you are picking your overrun angle because a warmachine has no facing. You do this on the charge move in. So ideally, you are not directly facing the machine in your previous turns move. You charge in by moving forwards and picking when, and how far you want to wheel, and then touching the machine. You DO NOT get to pick the overrun angle after the machine has been killed. Again - planning is key here.

 

[airjamy]

Re: What are our best warmachine hunters in big games (3000p

Can you actualy do that? I always thought that you had to test frenzy befor you do charges, that is the main drawback of it id say. The same with stupidity, that rule seems ok untill you reaaally want that flank charge now.

@Nightbtinger: the save is indeed nice, do note that i often play at 2000/2400, so i generally have less big threats around so more bolt throwers will be flung my way. In 3000+, i would also always play the enchanted shield i think, it is then more liable to death from CC or archery, the 2+ is then better.

@Ghostwarrior: I love your idea about mitigating frenzy penalties even more by choosing where you would overrun to, i might run a Ripperchief with something like a spear, the egg and an enchanted shield next game..

 

[GhostWarrior]

Re: What are our best warmachine hunters in big games (3000p

Can you actualy do that? I always thought that you had to test frenzy befor you do charges, that is the main drawback of it id say. The same with stupidity, that rule seems ok untill you reaaally want that flank charge now.

...

@Ghostwarrior: I love your idea about mitigating frenzy penalties even more by choosing where you would overrun to, i might run a Ripperchief with something like a spear, the egg and an enchanted shield next game..

Regarding 'when to test for Frenzy' - my example is valid. You are only required to test in the 'Declare Charges' sub-phase. It DOES NOT (emphasis ) state that you have to test for Frenzy at the beginning of the 'Declare Charges' sub-phase. Because of this, it is left to you-the player to decide when you want to test (within the 'Declare Charges' sub-phase). It can be to your advantage to test first, to coordinate other charges (the 'ol 'in for a penny, in for a pound') - or you may want to wait until the end to test (example - declare a charge against a unit that is in the Frenzy unit's range, but with a different unit, or a Terror causer. The enemy unit flees or fails their Terror test, and is now out of charge range of the Frenzy unit - guess who doesn't have to take a Test? . But should the enemy hold/pass, guess who will have to take a test? ).

There are many ways to work around (or make the best of) testing for Frenzy. What is difficult is preventing/mitigating the pursuit and overruns, especially when facing a savvy opponent.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Re: What are our best warmachine hunters in big games (3000p

I would like to say that I generally disagree on Ripperdactyl Frenzy being a drawback when the unit has a specific target.

Don't forget that you can declare a charge before taking a Frenzy check. This is a big deal for a unit that is homing in on a specific, static target. You simply move to within charge range on your 1st turn (or if you're lucky, in your opening VG move), then you declare your charge in your next turn (or on Turn 1 if you went 2nd!).

In the off chance that you won't be in reasonable charge range of the machine (over 19" away, by my usual efforts), then you just turn the rippers to face away from the opponent (usually a full 180 degrees). It costs you 0 movement, and has 0 additional effect on your next turns move. In that next turn you then move to within range, and charge in the following turn.

In fact, I would say these guys are custom-built for war machine hunting:

1. They won't panic on the way in.
2. They have good stats in the right areas for fighting even above average crews (the elf and dwarf crews).
3. 4+ Armor is solid for a WM hunter
4.* When charging a War Machine, as the charger you have the opportunity to pick your overrun angle, which mitigates what I see as the biggest drawback of Frenzy - having to pursue/overrun.
5. They can fly over units that might block a charge from a ground hunter.

Their main drawback to me is just that the meta has evolved to include more Magic Missiles in response to elf dominance. These guys have a tough time standing up to a 2D6 Fireball equivalent, event with their 4+ save.

Their secondary drawback (which is Frenzy related) comes if you want to keep their charge targets flexible (either b/c you want to hide your intent, or you truly want to keep your options open). If you are facing the enemy, and you don't want to charge, they become a liability.

Good Generalship/movement, and thinking 1 turn in advance can really make these guys pay dividends.

*To make sure number 4 is very clear, you are picking your overrun angle because a warmachine has no facing. You do this on the charge move in. So ideally, you are not directly facing the machine in your previous turns move. You charge in by moving forwards and picking when, and how far you want to wheel, and then touching the machine. You DO NOT get to pick the overrun angle after the machine has been killed. Again - planning is key here.

That is a great bit of strategy there GhostWarrior, thank you for sharing. Based on that, I'd have to agree that you can largely mitigate the downsides of frenzy when focusing your attack a specific static target like a warmachine. Like you said, what you really lose out on is the versatility that a terradon offers. As an extension, being Immune to Psychology and not panicking is a great asset, but it does come at the price of not being able to declare a flee reaction. With good movement this can be mitigated, but it's just a bit more versatility that Rippers are missing out on.