8th Ed. Wandering deliberations vs Focus of Mystery

[Gator]

I would like to hear people's take on which they prefer. Originally I was really in favor of high magic, but now I'm really leaning more towards deliberations.

I usually take a slaan in a TG bunker, so 8 really low casting spells is quite nice. The chances of IF is low and you're getting 4 unit buffs, 3 missiles and 1 character snipe. Also, I'm working on a list with tetto. His item that allows you to re roll 1s means you can get a lot of these spells off with one dice. You'd only fail the first attempt on a 2 for 5 of the spells.

Originally I was thinking I can get all the spells I wanted while using high magic. But than I found myself wasting power dice, and blowing up my TG after casting fiery conovocation. Secondly the spells I wanted to gain were sigs anyway.

Hand of glory is equal to miasma - miasma is actually better in some circumstances.

Walk btw worlds and arcane unforgiving are the only spells I think I'd really miss.

What do you guys think?

 

[Omar]

I gotta say that I liked using Deliberations a lot myself. Being able to call upon the lore life and lore of shadow attributes is really nifty. Tetto is definitely a great combo for this SMP (as close to Rumination as we can get). Plus you can still cast the Magic Missiles if the TG are in combat through ur skink priests.

I still like High Magic. I feel like I'm still getting used it however. The one bad thing in my case is that I've rarely gotten to use the lore attribute effectively. The few times I did get something switched out I didn't get a chance to use. (I think it's partly due to bad rolls on the winds of magic or at least that's what I tell myself :/)

 

[Lizardmatt]

Tetto is good, but you can't re-roll a re-roll.
3+ is casting success.
2 fails.
1 re-rolls.
On the re-roll, a 1 or 2 fail.

Single die casting goes from 66.67% to 77.78% success. While that might sound good, look at it the other way.
Single die casting means your slaans magic phase ends on the first attempt 22% of the time. Odds of casting 3 spells on a single die, even with Tetto's bonus, is less than 50%.


Likewise, I dropped Focus of Mystery pretty early. 4 spells is really enough and you can cycle out the losers fro the lore attributes you do need.
More importantly, I find myself back to using shadow and death magics. Even without loremaster, I find those lores better than high magic (even loremaster high magic), and much better than 8 signature spells.

-Matt

 

[Dreadgrass]

Personally still tinkering with Focus of Mystery myself, been pretty decent in the couple of games I've had so far (not 1-spell game changing, but solid) with options against pretty much any opponent. I find it has better synergies with certain units in our army than others though and boasts a nice variety of options.

If I wasn't running Focus of Mystery or Wandering Deliberations, I don't think I'd bother with a slann. A pair of lvl.2 Beast-skinks (D.Scroll and cube) and a pair of chotec-beam Bastiladons (would throw in Tetto'eko but most people around here are playing "tourney style" atm with no special characters) Should give me plenty of options for my dice.

 

[Spiney Norman]

I would like to hear people's take on which they prefer. Originally I was really in favor of high magic, but now I'm really leaning more towards deliberations...

...Hand of glory is equal to miasma - miasma is actually better in some circumstances.

What do you guys think?

Disagree, hand of glory is far more useful than miasma, miasma is great for letting you hit first, but HoG can do much more than that, it has a lot more options, for example it can make the great bow or razordons actually quite dangerous in the shoot phase, which miasma cannot

On the other hand I still prefer WD to mystery, 8 low casting cost spells, all of them useful is a very handy package to have, and while high magic has some fun spells, the swapping thing does work nearly as well as it needs to in order to maintain the flexibility you need from your Slann.

 

[laribold]

I've only played a few games with Lizardmen (joined up when the 8th ed army book came out so I've got no previous edition experience to compare it to). I much prefer WD and have found that it allows me to keep the pressure up throughout each magic phase.

Having 8 low casting value but seriously useful spells means you'll nearly always get good usage out of your PD and it can be a real headache for your opponent about what to dispel. Sure there's no #6 spells, but the damage output of the ranged spells (magic missiles + Spirit Leech) combined with the hexes/buffs means I'm nearly always getting off a couple of useful spells a turn.

Even if my Slann + TG are stuck in combat (where I want them to be) I can still cast some of those nice magic missiles through a nearby unengaged skink priest.

In fact given the ways that you can boost some of the Magic Missiles, you've really got access to even more than 8 spells (d6/ 2d6/ 3d6 fireballs; S4 or S6 shem's; d6/2d6 searing doom).

WD for me all the way!

 

[Gator]

I would like to hear people's take on which they prefer. Originally I was really in favor of high magic, but now I'm really leaning more towards deliberations...

...Hand of glory is equal to miasma - miasma is actually better in some circumstances.

What do you guys think?

Disagree, hand of glory is far more useful than miasma, miasma is great for letting you hit first, but HoG can do much more than that, it has a lot more options, for example it can make the great bow or razordons actually quite dangerous in the shoot phase, which miasma cannot

On the other hand I still prefer WD to mystery, 8 low casting cost spells, all of them useful is a very handy package to have, and while high magic has some fun spells, the swapping thing does work nearly as well as it needs to in order to maintain the flexibility you need from your Slann.

I don't really use razordons or great bows, but to each their own. I finf that there's quite a few WS 3 units, and with miasma on the roll of a 3+ these units will need a 5 to hit our saurus. I find that to be more useful personally.

 

[Spiney Norman]

I would like to hear people's take on which they prefer. Originally I was really in favor of high magic, but now I'm really leaning more towards deliberations...

...Hand of glory is equal to miasma - miasma is actually better in some circumstances.

What do you guys think?

Disagree, hand of glory is far more useful than miasma, miasma is great for letting you hit first, but HoG can do much more than that, it has a lot more options, for example it can make the great bow or razordons actually quite dangerous in the shoot phase, which miasma cannot

On the other hand I still prefer WD to mystery, 8 low casting cost spells, all of them useful is a very handy package to have, and while high magic has some fun spells, the swapping thing does work nearly as well as it needs to in order to maintain the flexibility you need from your Slann.

I don't really use razordons or great bows, but to each their own. I finf that there's quite a few WS 3 units, and with miasma on the roll of a 3+ these units will need a 5 to hit our saurus. I find that to be more useful personally.

Fair enough I guess, I almost never see any WS 3 units, most serious combat units are WS4+ and most cheap horde units are WS2.

 

[JohanR]

I prefer Mystery. It gives you so much flexibility and with a little planning you'll be able to swap to the signature spells you want during turn 1-2. And then there is the big threat spells that can really turn a game, going for Convocation on turn1(and then swapping it for something else), being a RiP spell it will stay and keep going forcing your opponent to try and dispel it with their own PD on a 19+! Walk between worlds is ace to move a horned A.Stegg behind enemy lines. Healing Solar, characters and Steggs is also a game changer. Hand of glory on TG(especially if combined with a Solar) will boost them to ws6 in5 on average and making them as quick as Elves or WoC! Same thing with arcane unforging, 2+ to remove the 3++ on that chaos lord/Sorc? The Book of Hoeth/BotWD? Heck even a scroll to keep it from stopping your later spells! Always useful and when you have picked off the item you can swap it for something else.

All it takes is planning 1-3 magic phases ahead and you'll always be better of with mystery IMO.

 

[Tecuani]

Other advantages of Miasma-
It can hex an opponents BS, which more than balances out boosting BS on one unit, in an army where only razordons really benefit from the extra to-hit bonus.
It can also do -D3 movement, which is a big use for it. Espescially against infantry, this will make a big difference, and even against faster units like cavalry it's useful.
Perhaps most importantly, Miasma is, at 48", a very long-ranged hex, one that can reach nearly anywhere on the battlefield, allowing you to make full use of its immense versatility. Hand of Glory, by contrast, is severely limited by its short range of only 18".

In context, Miasma is one of two cheap hexes and the much more powerful augment of wildform available to a slann with wandering deliberations, while a slann with focus of mystery has no other hexes or augments to cast should hand of glory be dispelled, or for if a combat requires a more powerful augment.

 

[olderplayer]

While I like the 8 signature spells option in many instances, I think Loremaster High Magic is under-rated. You want to take Soul ot Stone with High Magic to reduce the potential damage.

Hand of Glory is essential in a meta game with a lot of death mages (Vampire Counts, Warriors of Chaos) willing to cast purple sun and other mages casting lore of shadow initiative test spells if you go heavy wiith saurus core and run a large TG block. Boosting the I and WS when in combat are essential and increasing the M is also potentially very important in terms of getting into combat. Because it is an augment, you will generally use it within 18", so the shorter range is not an issue.

Walk Between Worlds is potentially huge in terms of getting a large unit into combat faster and blocking enemy units. This is particularly important especially against gun line armies.

Fiery Convocation is not cheap, but it is huge if iyou cast it on a horde unit and the RIP status forces the enemy to use a lot of power dice to dispel it. It is a game changing spell in some games.

Drain magic can really stop a lot of hexes and state spells on your units.

Arcane unforging is a really important spell for dealing with the "unkillable" characters and characters with key magic items. Where we are seeing a lot of Warriors of Chaos armies led by either a Daemon Prince of Nurgle or a Tzeentch Lore (mage or combat lord) with lhigh ward save and other items, taking away one magic item and getting a wound through is a big advantage.

What I find is that casting some of these spells early and then swapping for common book lore spells of my choice is a big advantage, especially with walk between worlds, unforging and convocation in certain situations but also to cast those direct damage spells with skink priest in a skink unit can be huge.

 

[sirkently]

I will vote for neither. Without the bonus casting die, you generally don't have enough power dice to be casting all the magic you want. Pick a lore (I don't mind high magic because of contemplations), and roll up your 4 spells. Switch out one or two as the game suits you, and go from there.

Works fine for me that way anyway.

 

[Lizardmatt]

I will vote for neither. Without the bonus casting die, you generally don't have enough power dice to be casting all the magic you want. Pick a lore (I don't mind high magic because of contemplations), and roll up your 4 spells. Switch out one or two as the game suits you, and go from there.

Works fine for me that way anyway.

I'm in this camp.
I've been successful with Death Magic, spotter priest, and Solardons; or High Magic Slaan (4 spells), and scroll caddy priest.

More than that, and I found I'm over-investing in magic that I never get to use.

-Matt

 

[RipperDerek]

I thought you could only forget High Magic spells?

 

[Anton_S]

I tried Loremaster High and I tried Wandering Deliberations.

Lormaster High was a disappointment. High Magic suffers from limited range and no option to boost it. I felt this made me a bit impotent in the early rounds as I either didn't have range at all or didn't have the choice of target to make optimal use of them. So my opponent could easily weather my suboptimal magic and save his scroll for later.

Deliberations blew me away. So much goodness. Miasma is vastly better than Hand of Glory, which is useless until you get into combat. Miasma will hinder movement or shooting at 48". Once you get into combat, the enemies that matter are WS3-5. Dropping that by D3 will almost always have an impact against your WS3-4 Saurus and TG. Increasing your own WS will never make those enemies hit you on a 5, dropping theirs might. Miasma also combines with Blizzard very nicely.

We don't have many answers to heavy armour anymore, so Searing Doom is great to have.

Need to clear away some chaff? Boost a Fireball and they're dead at 36". I also love this MM for the flexibility to do 1, 2 or 3 D6 S4 hits depending on your needs.

Terrorgeist or Greater Daemons? That'll be a boosted Burning Gaze, puttting the hurt on at 48".

And then you get ace spells like Blizzard, Wildform and Spirit Leech as well. Earthblood is good too if you run your toad in a TG unit, and if you have a Steg or Bastiladon it will appreciate the Life attribute.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Can't boost range? That's what skinks are for. All that direct damage picks up another 24", without an increase in casting value.

As for hand of glory, the increase movement can be a threat. You can build a gimmick turn 2 charge.
Turn 1, move up temple guard 8".
Turn 1, cast hand of glory, and increase the movement of the temple guard.
Turn 2, reveal that the slaan has the banner of swiftness (+1 movement), and the temple guard have the Jaguar Banner, as you make a 5 + D3" charge, with swift strider, with your infantry block.

Boosted Hand of Glory on temple guard is just good all around.
Do you want to charge into WS6 Init 5 with 18 S5 attacks?

As pointed out before, Hand of Glory on a Razordon unit is awesome. I had a unit of 6 wipe out a block of 18 chaos warriors, before the warriors got to swing; shooting, stand and shoot, and then swung before the warriors. Killed them to the man, with average rolling.

I like having "Must Dispel" spells that go off on a 10+.

The problem with high magic is that you get some really good mid range spells (10+ boosted hand of glory, 13+ unforge, 16+ boosted walk between worlds, or 16+ boosted magic missile), but the lore really lacks "The Big One". Without a purple sun, mindrazor, or dwellers, it just doesn't pack the same threat.
Everyone takes a S4 hits tear up hordes, but doesn't do squat to monsters/monstrous cav, or really cav for that matter.

I think if you're going to go high magic, you really need to build around it. Take units that can really take advantage of the lore.

-Matt

 

[Noveltyboy]

I like the high lore but do find with combat being so important that after turn 2 - 3 most of the spells are unusable. Im going to try some games with all sigs see how that goes as ive only used it in storm of magic so far. Which is awesome

 

[walach]

Haven't tried wandering deliberations, but will be using it next time I think.

I think either is definitely worth it for the relatively small amount of points it costs.

On miasma vs HoG, i'm definitely on the side of miasma. The range of HoG is really limiting. Certainly I find it much more useful to impede an enemies M/BS than boost our own; WS is better with miasma as it's way easier to get enemies hitting on 5s; Initiative i guess is very slightly better from HoG as saurus will only ever get simultaneous with miasma.

Convocation, for sure is scary, but tbh it's only really good against things we shouldn't have any bother against anyway - it's the chariots/Mcav/cav/monsters that i find tough to take down, not enemy infantry.

Arcane unforging, i haven't found useful yet. Most enemies tend to pack multiple low cost items, massively reducing the effect of this spell. Sure, if you're really lucky you might blow up a dragonbane gem and leave them open to a later searing doom, but a savvy player isn't going to make things that easy for you. IF it could be cast in combat, i might be on board, but as it is.... nah.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Arcane unforging, i haven't found useful yet. Most enemies tend to pack multiple low cost items, massively reducing the effect of this spell. Sure, if you're really lucky you might blow up a dragonbane gem and leave them open to a later searing doom, but a savvy player isn't going to make things that easy for you. IF it could be cast in combat, i might be on board, but as it is.... nah.

I've used unforging for the snipe ability as much as anything else.
Pick off the unit champion and the wizard bunkering inside can't have the champ challenge block the skink on ripper that charges on the next turn. Or pick off magic banners in units.

The Big advantage of Hand of Glory comes into play when you have a unit using more than just one of the stats. Anything that shoots and fights lets you double down on the effect of a single casting.
In my first trial of the 30 strong poison skink cohort block (10 wide). A 2 point swing on my weapon skill or your weapon skill is going to work out the exact same way. Initiative is a wash if I gain it or you lose it.
So then you have to look at, would you rather have more BS, or would you rather drop your opponents movement? In a 12" range shooting army, I'll take the BS. By the time my 2 rank is in range, you're likely to make the charge with, or without the -2 to movement. The +2 BS gives me another ~13 S3 hits between shooting and stand and fire.

But possibly most important.
If you start with Hand of Glory, you can get Miasma.
If you start with Miasma, you'll never get hand of glory.

-Matt

 

[Spiney Norman]

Haven't tried wandering deliberations, but will be using it next time I think.

I think either is definitely worth it for the relatively small amount of points it costs.

On miasma vs HoG, i'm definitely on the side of miasma. The range of HoG is really limiting. Certainly I find it much more useful to impede an enemies M/BS than boost our own; WS is better with miasma as it's way easier to get enemies hitting on 5s; Initiative i guess is very slightly better from HoG as saurus will only ever get simultaneous with miasma.

Convocation, for sure is scary, but tbh it's only really good against things we shouldn't have any bother against anyway - it's the chariots/Mcav/cav/monsters that i find tough to take down, not enemy infantry.

Arcane unforging, i haven't found useful yet. Most enemies tend to pack multiple low cost items, massively reducing the effect of this spell. Sure, if you're really lucky you might blow up a dragonbane gem and leave them open to a later searing doom, but a savvy player isn't going to make things that easy for you. IF it could be cast in combat, i might be on board, but as it is.... nah.

I've found the opposite with arcane unforging, for me it has been one of the most useful spells in the lore, getting rid of the banner of the world dragon or the book of Hoeth is absolutely vital.