TOW Two variants of list with 2 temple guards units

[Kalisto]

Guys I need some suggestions for a tournament. This is heavily comped, this reason I play in this way. I am bit undecided between these two lists. Essentialy in one I have Oldblood on Carnosaur and Stegadon with Eotg, in the other 2 scarvet carnosaurs and no stegadon. (I could move BSB on one of carnosaurs too but not sure about that).
In both lists I have like 504 core so I cannot reduce those.

Renegade [2000 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Lizardmen, Renegade, Open War

Slann Mage-Priest, Level 4 Wizard, General, Battle Standard Bearer, Earthing Rod, Elementalism - 315
Saurus Oldblood, Great weapon, Carnosaur, Armour of Meteoric Iron, Glyph Necklace - 379
18 Temple Guard, Revered Guardian (champion), Standard bearer - 302
12 Skink Skirmishers - 60
13 Skink Skirmishers, Vanguard - 70
12 Skink Skirmishers, Scouts - 70
15 Temple Guard, Revered Guardian (champion), Standard bearer - 254
Bastiladon, Javelins, Thunderous bludgeon, Solar Engine - 175
3 Ripperdactyl Riders - 120
Ancient Stegadon, Javelins, Great horns, Engine of the Gods - 255

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Renegade 2 carnosaurs [2000 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Lizardmen, Renegade, Open War

Slann Mage-Priest, Level 4 Wizard, General, Battle Standard Bearer, Earthing Rod, Elementalism - 315
Saurus Scar-Veteran, Great weapon, Carnosaur, Talisman of Protection, Armour of Meteoric Iron - 314
Saurus Scar-Veteran, Great weapon, Shield, Carnosaur, Glyph Necklace - 311
18 Temple Guard, Full Command - 309
12 Skink Skirmishers - 60
12 Skink Skirmishers, Vanguard - 65
12 Skink Skirmishers, Scouts - 70
15 Temple Guard, Full Command - 261
Bastiladon, Javelins, Thunderous bludgeon, Solar Engine - 175
3 Ripperdactyl Riders - 120

 

[ImYukkuri]

From my perspective, Old Blood with EOTG is a stronger option. Temple Guard are too slow, so you'll want more range fire to force your opponent to engage you.
Additionally, I think the two TG units are a bit undersized. Generally, you would want a unit with higher unit strength to make their opponent to flee; otherwise, small Temple Guard units end up doing only a few relatively ineffective kills. Perhaps it would be an option to drop the Ripperdactyl Riders (and BSB on slann?) to pursue a more extreme, high-pressure approach?

 

[Kalisto]

Well about TG size I may agree with you, on the other side you are not going be double of your enemy, infantries are always more than you. Monsters are often stubborn and you can barely do wounds. Heroes on chariots and monsters are going to lose anyway and are not going to charge you without be sure to win the combat. BSB is not need as before, i agree with you. But is still +1 CR.

If I remove ripperdactyl I need somethign else again war machines. Skinks sucks now and they can be easily shot down with grapeshots. It's hard i know....

 

[ColdOneCowboy]

If it were my list, I’d not take a Carnosaur at all.

I’d take an Oldblood on foot and have him join the temple guard. Remove the other magical items and give him Tzunki Blade. Make the two units of TG into one large unit, with Slann joining also. Switch Slann’s spellbook to High Magic to maximise buffs. Temple Guard to carry the Sun standard to protect from shooting. Maybe Slann or a Scar-Vet to be BSB, give them the Skavenpelt banner to give Frenzy.

Frenzy, plus Fury of Khaine to maximise attacks on charge. Even better if you can pull off Walk Between Worlds to make them Ethereal for a turn.

I’d take a skink priest on an EOTG instead of a Carnosaur. Higher toughness, has impact hits, buffs your Slann, and could give it a ToP for additional protection. Maybe add another in Rare to protect both sides of solid Temple Guard block.

Additionally, a Bastiladon to provide +1i to the Temple Guard. Now you’ve got 3 decent quality bound spells that will force your opponent to get close enough range for your T.Guard to charge.

Remaining points fill up with Skink units for maximum annoyance.

EDIT: This type of list is what I’ve found the most success with since 1.5 errata. Before that, I was 1W-5L.
Since the errata I’ve made variations of the type of list above and am sitting at 4-0.

 

[ImYukkuri]

It’s a bad mindset to think you cant overrun the enemy — if you can’t make your Temple Guard hold in most situations (and win you the game), then running two units of TG probably isn’t necessary, right? TG might not be the top infantry unit, but they’re tough enough that your opponent will have to sink a good chunk of resources into dealing with them.
I agree you should have an Oldblood or some Saurus Veterans (or both) in your infantry. They can really dish out some damage, and most standard cav or chariot units won’t engage them lightly.

As for the Carnosaur… this list doesn’t really have a reliable way to deal with behemoth units, so I’d really like to keep one in there.But that means removing other unit. Tough decision.

Ripperdactyl Riders… against an experienced player, they dont oftenly get their shot. Still, it’s not a bad idea to keep them just in case.

Walk Between Worlds is another solid way to deal with war machines — it’s not just about protecting your infantry; you can also use your ethereal TG to screen and cover other units.

 

[Kalisto]

If it were my list, I’d not take a Carnosaur at all.

I’d take an Oldblood on foot and have him join the temple guard. Remove the other magical items and give him Tzunki Blade. Make the two units of TG into one large unit, with Slann joining also. Switch Slann’s spellbook to High Magic to maximise buffs. Temple Guard to carry the Sun standard to protect from shooting. Maybe Slann or a Scar-Vet to be BSB, give them the Skavenpelt banner to give Frenzy.

Frenzy, plus Fury of Khaine to maximise attacks on charge. Even better if you can pull off Walk Between Worlds to make them Ethereal for a turn.

I’d take a skink priest on an EOTG instead of a Carnosaur. Higher toughness, has impact hits, buffs your Slann, and could give it a ToP for additional protection. Maybe add another in Rare to protect both sides of solid Temple Guard block.

Additionally, a Bastiladon to provide +1i to the Temple Guard. Now you’ve got 3 decent quality bound spells that will force your opponent to get close enough range for your T.Guard to charge.

Remaining points fill up with Skink units for maximum annoyance.

EDIT: This type of list is what I’ve found the most success with since 1.5 errata. Before that, I was 1W-5L.
Since the errata I’ve made variations of the type of list above and am sitting at 4-0.

Well i won already 70% of my games before 1,5. Now i haven't play a lot but seen that the skink deubff is tough (i had 36 before, not a lot but not too few).
Just a question. How do you suppose guys that your heroes on foot stay alive against charging units/heroes? Have you think that enemies have ALWAYS higher initiative than you (even from the second round) Even with Bastiladon near you have at highest 4.

 

[ImYukkuri]

Maybe take another look at how infantry got buffed in 1.5?
Infantry now get a second fighting rank when they’re charged, a +1 armor save with hand weapon + shield, and some extra CR.
Also, models not in base contact are removed first. That means as long as you don’t lose more than a full rank, your front rank still swings with 2 attacks per model. So most cav units aren’t actually a good matchup into you.

For foot heroes, you can protect them by throwing out a challenge. I’m not sure if you want the full breakdown. Anyway, the worst-case scenario is getting hit by an enemy HQ on a behemoth together with a combo-charge from other units, in other case you can have some way to deal with it. And that’s why I recommend keeping a Carnosaur—to deter that and punish over-commits.

 

[Kalisto]

Maybe take another look at how infantry got buffed in 1.5?
Infantry now get a second fighting rank when they’re charged, a +1 armor save with hand weapon + shield, and some extra CR.
Also, models not in base contact are removed first. That means as long as you don’t lose more than a full rank, your front rank still swings with 2 attacks per model. So most cav units aren’t actually a good matchup into you.

For foot heroes, you can protect them by throwing out a challenge. I’m not sure if you want the full breakdown. Anyway, the worst-case scenario is getting hit by an enemy HQ on a behemoth together with a combo-charge from other units, in other case you can have some way to deal with it. And that’s why I recommend keeping a Carnosaur—to deter that and punish over-commits.

I agree with you, played last week and got a double chariot against TG with slann charge with heroes on it, it doesn't ended well and i don't think an heroes on foot had changed it a lot. Maybe I could play better but still....

The main problem is that you have already 600 points in one unit, adding more points is quite easy to 1) avoid the unit 2) shot down it with war machines/ballons and whatever that doesn't use BS but artillery dice (Chotecs banner doesn't help =( )
With a second TG unit you could column march forward, be charged, FBIGO back and reform in a 2 rank formation and fight back. So it adds one more threat and a little more menace. I haven't tested it a lot.
But, right now, my list are like 3 carnosaurs OR 6 magic missile to try to figure out what's better.

 

[ImYukkuri]

Two chariots (even with a hero) are actually something you can handle, in my opinion. Impact hits can’t be assigned to your hero as long as there are 5+ models in the unit, so there’s no need to worry about your hero getting sniped right away. Another key point is that every TG in your group can issue a challenge — just call him out so his hero on the chariot either has to accept and cause far fewer casualties, or refuse and sit out of the fight entirely.

Let’s say you’re facing two Orc Chariots or Chaos Chariots (two of the nastiest in the game IMO) and your Slann fails to land any buffs or debuffs. The one with the hero will end up tied down by that brave TG. On average, 2D6 + 2 S5 AP2 impact hits will only cause around 4 wounds. You’ll still have 10+ attacks to strike back, and with a hero swinging a great weapon, you’ve got a solid chance to take down one chariot.

Even if you lose the combat, you’ve got Stubborn + SW, so he can’t treat as charged next turn. You can issue another challenge, and if he doesn’t have other champions/heroes in the combat, his hero can only target another brave TG or the hero, you pick it. On your next turn you’ll start with at least 4 CR — 5–6 in the best cases. Without the impact hits, the enemy hero (and crew/ride) has to do serious damage just to not lose the combat, and there’s even a chance it might break and flee.

Take the opportunity to charge if you’ve got buffs from the Slann, or if he FBIGO and make your move. In most cases your hero will be safe before dishing out heavy damage at the right moment.

I’m just bringing up this as one possible approach — it’s a trick I often use in my local games, though I’m not sure if your meta is aware of it. Of course, things won’t always go perfectly (like when other enemy units pile in, or your dice rolls are truly awful), but I find it works in most regular situations. At the very least, TGs are excellent at protecting foot heroes inside a block.

As for running two TG units, I’ve always thought it’s a viable idea — as you said, it splits your opponent’s firepower, and giving more tactical option. But for this particular list, I think 15 TGs might be a bit too few, and you probably do need a foot hero to deal with tougher opponents, answer more varied threats, add unit strength, and reduce panic risk. If you just need something to divert your opponent’s attention, Ripperdactyl Riders can already do that job.No need to form another expensive TG unit.

 

[Kalisto]

Thank for your reply, just some specifications:
There were 2 chariots with 2 heroes...that was the problem!
Impact hits can hit your character, but only if they are in base of contact. So yeah you can potentially die of them before to attack =)

If you strike back at S4 you are not going to make many wounds. Especially against T5 (T4 chariots are often not a problem). The problem is when you got against you 2 heroes (whatever the mount) and the weakest one challenge away you. It may be a dragon and something else. This is the problem of slow infantry units.

But in conclusion i agree with you, I should probably remove the second carnosaur, play a hero on foot and increase TG or increase something else.
Yesterday I routed a wood elf dragon, but by a chance. Had a 18 unit+ slann, he killed 2 champions. First round he gave ground but the second I won with a unit strength of 16+3...he has 9. So just the double to route him. If it was a chaos dragon it hadn't work.

 

[ImYukkuri]

You might want to double-check the “characters in combat” rule — it says:

• (Characters)Can only have Impact Hits or Stomp Attacks directed against them if there are fewer than five rank and file models in the unit.
  

So unless I’ve missed something, as long as you’ve still got 5+ regular TGs in the front rank, your hero won’t be taking those Impact Hits at all (even if in base contact). Of course, another enemy hero can still cut him down in normal combat, that’s a different story.

And yeah, I agree — TGs might only do 1–3 wounds against high-T targets. Smashing high Toughness with infantry is never the job they excel at. If that happens, it usually means your Carnosaur didn’t do its job, and the Slann failed to cast anything useful (which, to be fair, is all too common ).

 

[Kalisto]

You right, i just read the first sentence.