AoS Tomb Kings Chariot attacks

[aTortis]

Alright bear with me a moment. I noticed this in the rules this week while playing and my opponent disagreed so we had a roll off and I won and he wasn't too pleased, but I am trying to see what other people think.

The warscroll for the skeleton chariots states the following: Each Chariot is crewed by a pair of skeleton warriors equipped with charioteers' spears.

It doesn't exactly specify that it is a single model, although we can assume since it only has one wound profile.

Now the next part about the master of chariots: the leader of this unit is a master of chariots; HE makes 3 attacks rather than 2 with his charioteers spear.

So reading that, I assume that each charioteer makes 2 attacks at that point because it says that only he makes 3 attacks rather than 2, and that each charioteer has the 2 attack spear weapon. what do you think?

Also on that note, if above was true, each horse would then get 4 thundering hooves attacks? total of 8 thundering hooves attacks and 4 spear attacks per chariot (and doubling to 16 and 8 on a charge?) It seems like a lot but when I played it out it really wasn't utterly horrible, considering the rolls needed to hit and wound.

Now the part that really makes the question though is say Settra. His thundering hooves attack is listed as 8. that would mean 32 thundering hooves attacks between the 4 horses (64 on a charge!) that is where I start to get a little iffy. Also the Warsphinx and the amount of attacks from the Howdah Crew. At full health 8 attacks. That would make it 32 if the weapon stat applied to all riders.

My confusion is coming from the fact that normally there is only one mount and one rider per mount model, alleviating any confusion on the weapons and the amount of attacks. where as these have multiple of either. and the master of chariots says he makes an extra attack with his single spear, even though both riders do supposedly have spears, is one rider simply not attacking? Are the horses and riders just better trained and thus get more attacks?

 

[is4evrdead]

My belief is that the chariot counts as one model so if the war scroll says 2 attacks with the spear then they only get two attacks ( I.e 1 attack per crew member) same goes for the horses. The master guy getting 3 because he is more skilled at combat

 

[aTortis]

Yes, but again the part that makes me question it is the fact that the master of chariots is only one of the charioteers, and it specifically states that he alone gets 3 attacks instead of two with his spear alone. Which would mean that each charioteer would have 2 attacks then would it not? Since it says on the war scroll that they both have the spears?

I know this edition can't be compared to previous ones, but for what it's worth in 8th each charioteer got 2 attacks a piece.

 

[Gazbal]

Hi aToris,

I agree with is4evrdead.

Chariots are a unit of several models all who use the warscroll stats.
The leader of the unit has an additional attack because he is the leader.

Basically it's exactly the same as an infantry unit where the tomb captain for instance attacks 3 times instead of 2.

If it helps, think of the 2 charioteers as the 2 arms of the chariot. Together they make 2 attacks just like Tomb Guard models can.
The captain of the unit is slightly better so he gets an additional attack.

 

[aTortis]

I see what you both are getting at. However, it still doesn't alleviate the fact that it states that the master of chariots gets 3 attacks instead of 2 with his own spear; quite clearly outlining that each person with one of those spears would then normally get 2 attacks a piece with said spear, and both charioteers have the spear. If each charioteer only made one attack each, it wouldn't make sense for them to say that the master of chariots makes 3 instead of 2 attacks with his spear when he would only normally be making one attack...

and with the "champion" being better trained thus getting more attacks, why couldn't the horses also be better trained for combat and thus deal more attacks as well?

 

[Gazbal]

Hi Atortis,

How about this then. The Master of chariots is a chariot which is in charge of the others. Not an individual person on the chariot.

As you can see a normal chariot gets 2 spear attacks even though there are 2 riders.
A master chariot is slightly better - gaining 1 more attack.

So when they say the master of chariots gains an additional attack with "his" spear - this is a generic way of referring to the chariot. They could just as easily have referred to the master of chariots as "she" in the same way that boats often are.

The number of crew is irrelevant.

 

[aTortis]

so what you are saying is that the master of chariots just over powers the other crew member and takes all the attacks for himself? again, the war scroll states that the two riders are equipped with spears and the spear gets two attacks.

The basic rules state the following: the number of attacks a model can make is determined by the weapons that it is armed with (2 spears).... the number of attacks a model can make is equal to the attacks characteristic of the weapons it can use.

by what it says here, it is armed with 2 spears. the attacks characteristic is 2 for each spear. so it can make 4 attacks

 

[Gazbal]

Hi aTortis,

Hahaha! I like the image of a crazy chariot master taking over.

But no. I'm saying that the "master of chariots" is a title which describes one chariot who's crew is slightly better than the norm.
There is no guy called the master of chariots at all. It's not a person - it's the entire chariot and all of it's crew together.
Calling them the "master of chariots" is like calling them "the dream team". It just shows that they are a bit better than everyone else.

The chariot gets 2 attacks with spears total. The fact that 2 skeleton warriors are described is just flavor text.
You don't multiply the number of attacks by the number of crew. The 2 attacks listed are it.

If we look at the warscroll the chariots attack characteristic for spears is 2.
Not 2 per crewmember or 2 per spear, Just 2.
You can rationalize this as 1 attack per guy if you like but really it's beside the point.

AOS uses that warscroll to list what each model can do.
It's simplified down to the level that you don't even compare weapon skill to target or strength to toughness.
You just read the warscroll and that's all there is to it.

Does that help?

 

[aTortis]

okay, lets get away from the master of chariots altogether now (yes he may be a little over zealous on the battlefield and want all the glory for himself)

the rules do state the a models attacks are determined by the weapons it is armed (this is the key word here) with. A chariot is armed with 2 spears (one for each charioteer), and two sets of horses hooves (kinda ignore these for a bit though until I explain the spears). The rules do clearly state the it goes of the attacks characteristic of the weapons (plural mind you) that it is actually armed with. It seems that they have gone away from giving the actual models a set amount of attacks and simply said that the weapons are the ones that carry the amount of attacks, the to hit characteristic, and to wound characteristic.

 

[Gazbal]

Hi aTortis,

I can see where you are coming from but I don't think the rules are written specifically enough to differentiate between our points of view.

Basically you are saying that because the description of the chariot states that there are a pair of skeleton warriors and that they are armed with "Charioteer's spears", the number of attacks listed on the warscroll should be multipled by the number of crew in the same way that you would normally multiply a weapon stat line by the number of individual models in a unit - ie infantry.

I am saying that the chariot is the model and that the stat line refers to the total number of attacks that model can make using that weapon.
ie. "Charioteer's spears" refers to the total number of attacks made by the model in the same way that an infantry warscroll lists the number of attacks a model can make using that weapon.
You would only multiply the number of attacks by the number of models in the unit and a chariot unit has 3 models minimum, not by the crew as well.

The rules state that a model can make a number of attacks equal to the attacks characteristic of the weapons it can use.
You are taking this to mean multiples of one weapon and I am taking this to mean several different weapon options (ie spears, bows and hooves).

The only thing I can say to support my view is that characters armed with more than one of a particular weapon do not multiply the number of attacks they receive, they usually only gain 2 or 3 extra attacks from it.

Also when the AOS system is so dumbed down that the number you need to roll to hit and to wound are outright stated, I cannot believe that they intended to increase the complexity by having players count the number of crew a chariot has and multiply out the attacks per crew. Especially when chariots are fielded 3 per units.

Does anyone else want to chime in with an opinion?

 

[aTortis]

The model makes attacks based on the weapons it has equipped ( I can't stress this word enough here), not based on which ones it can use.

But really there is nothing in the rules that state that what is listed in the warscrolls is the total number of attacks any model gets. Rather they limited it to what weapons and how many weapons a model can have, then giving each weapon it's characteristics. I don't think we can even begin to interperate how gw wants this game to be like however

I do agree with you though, we need more than just our 2 opinions on this.

 

[tom ndege]

Hi. Just took a look at the warscroll of the chariots...
The wording is quite indifferent. Both in English and German. But that only BTW.
So it's my opinion that they have only two attacks per model, caus the crew is part of the model and equipped with the spears... I think the two attacks in the weapons statistics result in the crew of two skeletons. Each of them having one attack... The master of chariots can in this way be special cause he's got to strikes and his crewman (bones) has one.
But just my opinion...
Both of you could be right so far...

 

[Crowsfoot]

So @aTortis are you playing that your crew has 4 attacks with the ancient bow as well?

I agree with @Gazbal what is stated on the warscroll is the maximum of attacks per unit not per crew member, but if your opponent agrees you can play it either way but that will make your chariot a little OP.

 

[Kultak]

If you look at the Stegadon and Engine of the Gods models and read the description you can figure out that there are about four skinks on top of them. We do not attack 16 times with the meteoric javelins! One attack each. The chariots are the same way, besides all other Skeletons get one attack on close combat. Since there are two Skeletons on a Chariot, The Chariot gets two attacks.

 

[Gorgerak]

I have to agree with @Gazbal on this - the warscroll's stat line states how many attacks each model in the unit gets. The definition of the term model that I use is "each individually based figure". The charioteers are not individual models to the chariot, and neither are the horses, So I would say that the Charioteer's spears is a representation of how many times the crew components of the chariot model can attack in a single combat round.

In fluff perspective, you might say that the second charioteer got an arrow in the knee early in the battle, and couldn't fight, so his buddy ('Bones' I believe it was) evolved a perception of 'care' and fought twice as hard to protect his friend.

So, to join in on the engine of the gods analogy the skinks get 4 meteoric javelin attacks, regardless of how many skink bodies are on the Engine, the model gets 4 meteoric javelin attacks no more, no less.

 

[Sean]

I've only just started playing the tomb kings and I have had a little trouble trying to figure out the chariots myself. Both me and a mate (a warhammer master) have both come to the conclusion that the charioteers have 2 attacks each. The description for the chariots is stated, 2 skeletal steeds and 2 charioteers. In the stats for the chariots a skeletal steed has 1 attack and a charioteer has 2. The stats only say singular so there for 2 attacks for the steeds and 4 for the charioteers. I hope this helps

 

[Killer Angel]

A chariot got 2 skeleton charioteers and 2 horses.
The profile of the warscroll says that the model have 2 spear attacks and 4 hooves attacks.

To break it down, each horse got 2 attacks, as you can easily see from the fact that the single horse of a horseman has 2 attacks, and the 4 horses of Settra sum a total of 8 attacks.
The text description about the master of chariots may be not so clear, but many are mostly fluff. The fact is that the profile of the warscroll tell the number of the model's attacks, ALL included.

 

[m0gstar]

As others have stated - the warscroll is the number of attacks. Period. The chariot as a whole gets 4 hoof attacks and 2 spear attacks - 3 spear attacks if it is the leader.

If the other method was applicable ....brb converting my steg to have 70 skinks on top of it for 260 points.

Go off the warscroll - the warscroll would contain special rules that would allow each model on the chariot to utilize the attacks profile if that was every applicable (i dont think it is).

This boils down to the same argument as dual wielding models which has been FAQ'd. The argument was that a dual wielding model would double the number of attacks (for instance orc wielding 2 axes). In the argument , and axe had 3 attacks, he has two, therefore he would attack 6 times. However, the dual wielding special rules would say "A dual wielding model will generate 4 attacks instead of 3 and reroll 1s to hit" or something similar (i totally just made up the special rule so that is not actually what happens in the case of dual wielding - but you get the drift)

 

[Gorgerak]

As others have stated - the warscroll is the number of attacks. Period. The chariot as a whole gets 4 hoof attacks and 2 spear attacks - 3 spear attacks if it is the leader.

If the other method was applicable ....brb converting my steg to have 70 skinks on top of it for 260 points.

Go off the warscroll - the warscroll would contain special rules that would allow each model on the chariot to utilize the attacks profile if that was every applicable (i dont think it is).

This boils down to the same argument as dual wielding models which has been FAQ'd. The argument was that a dual wielding model would double the number of attacks (for instance orc wielding 2 axes). In the argument , and axe had 3 attacks, he has two, therefore he would attack 6 times. However, the dual wielding special rules would say "A dual wielding model will generate 4 attacks instead of 3 and reroll 1s to hit" or something similar (i totally just made up the special rule so that is not actually what happens in the case of dual wielding - but you get the drift)

thanks for that - seems pretty clear to me

also... please post up a picture of your steg conversion - that would look brilliant!!!