8th Ed. To Keep Or Not To Keep?

[WorkbenchManiac]

"To keep, or not to keep: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of Warhammer 8th edition,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?"

I was just sorting through some stuff that will end up on ebay, when I came across all the materials I had gathered for my lizardmen army: When the 7th edition Lizardmen armybook came out, I decided to do another army of the cold blooded kind, since they were what got me into warhammer and modelling many years ago. So I amassed all the raw materials: temple guard kits, skinks, the new stegadon kit and other bits and pieces.
My plan was to slowly craft an army that reflects the skills and talent that I have aquired since I started, I wanted this to be a labor of love. So I kept working on it on and off whenever I felt inspired to do so, not wanting to rush anything.

I planned to do custom bases for the entire army, a temple slowly being conquered from the lustrian jungle, but still mostly intact instead of some rubble in the woods.
The saurus I intended to convert from the bulkier and more muscular temple guard, with custom sculpted heads that should look like the artworks, without the rounded snouts and the dopy tusks.
I had already begun to sculpt my own teradons, including one in a sitting position, the wings folded. It would have sat on a pillar, a skink chief on it´s back, overwieving the battle.

I was really excited for this project, and I set my goals high.

Then 8th edition came along. After some test games with my beloved close-combat dwarf army I found the new game to be asinine and boring. Sure, my dwarfs got stronger, faster, with access to better warmachines, but I did not enjoy the game any more. Models were taken off the table way to fast, the "bloodiness" of all phases cranked up to create "action", I felt as if my models were being degraded from warriors to redshirts, out to die for coolness´s sake.

I´d like to take the time and go through the entire 8th edition rulebook, highlighting the rule changes that seem only to exist to sell more models/be "cool by killing models" (which arguably are entirely interchangeable concepts anyway). Maybe once the smaller (cheaper) book is available on eBay... but I digress.

The flaws I see with 8th edition are hard to pinpoint to one or two specific rules. The new terrain rules are one of the more obvious examples. I don´t enjoy playing a game with statues that shoot lasers from their eyes, or magic wells that units can drink from. In fact, it annoyes and irritates me a lot.
Sure, they are optional, just as the "mysterious terrain"-rule for woods or rivers, but if you don´t use the disney-esque rules for "mushroom forrests" and "rivers of blood", then terrain does squat all.

I already mentioned my immense frustration with the rate models are removed, be it by the new and improved templates, the completely over the top magic lores, or the new close combat phase, which absolutely loves rolling as many dice as possible, because static combat resolution is "uncool", and removing 16 dwarfs in one combat phase is "awesome".


I am posting this rant not to annoy you, nor do I want to argue the merit of the new edition, I think the merits of 8th are inarguable and in plain sight.

Now that we have all this out of the way, I finally come to the reason for this thread and it´s title: I am debating with myself to sell the lizardmen off, and really, to quit the entire game.

Sure, I have my love for the modelling aspect, but all the work for an army that I cannot even take to a tournament or other event so other people see it?

But I still have a lot of investment into warhammer. I enjoyed it for many years and don´t want to give that up. I feel quite a bit torn.

So my plea to you: Convince me of the merits of the new warhammer! Show me were I am wrong in my perception! Maybe someone has been opposed to the new rules as well, but came around and can relate to my situation?

This is a rant
written by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

 

[n810]

Yea you should just give up and mail all of your models to me.



Seriously play a 8th edition game with some of your friends,
even if you are just using empty bases as models, before
you go all doom and gloom, at least give the new edition a chance.

 

[lord karnik]

how about this how much you want for it?

 

[Tubbe]

To actually do a constructive comment, to thread, i think it's safe to say, is put a lot of thought into.:

I really disliked the changes 8th brought at first. but after a fair few games i'm starting to come along.
Surely the game isn't won in the movement phase like before; surely you don't have to be as, what some people call, "Skilled", as you did before.
Though you still have to do a lot of thinking, not in the movement phase (Well, yes here too), but in general you have to calculate probabilities in every aspect of the game.

- what's the chance of my chameleons being cought in the charge when they do a flee reaction from a move 7 cavalry when 5,9" away, 8", 11"?
- you can now "Calculate" the outcome of CC, given any sitiation, since the charger doesn't get as big an advantage as before. What's the chance of my 24 saurus doing 2+ wounds to chaos knights, in order not to be stuck forever in CC?

The new magic rules seemed to me like too random to be fun. Though they do make the game A LOT less "Cheasy" for armies like undead and deamons, though it makes Dwarves hugely OP with their dispell mechanics.

But overall i think they made the game a lot more enjoyable. - Not a lot you can argue about in 8th, not a lot you can chease up, not a lot you can predict by certainties on beforehand.

Key words would to me be: More fun, less chease, less skills needed, more luck-dependant.

 

[Wolf]

I believe that the real question you should be asking yourself is whether you are willing to give up the dream that was to be your Lizardmen army. Warhammer is more than a tabletop game, it's a hobby. There are more than enough people who focus on the collecting and painting side of the hobby and it sounds as if you are definitely one of them. Don't give up just because you don't like the game anymore. It sounds like you've got some amazing ideas for your army, keep at them, keep working on that, get your satisfaction from finishing your project. And I guarantee you, once you've finished your army, go to the tournaments, get the recognition you deserve for labouring for so long on an army that sounds pretty damn promising and play the game, there are more prizes to be won than the one for first place or for best general.

And please post some pictures of your work, your bases look amazing already can't wait to see the rest :-D

 

[oldblood62]

I think these fellow lizards have made some compelling arguments,they are absolutely right its a different game a little less chess and a lil more luck and more magic in most circumstance for sure! I actually tend to agree with them its a little better than the last edition but I personally don't like the way our army plays, which really frustrated me since I really prefer to play with my lizards if at all possible, so I took a step back and realized I was still doin what I loved gaming! Coming up with a paint scheme for my new regiment for javelin skinks and painting them and 2 Knoxes to go with them, not to mention rolling dice and having fun! In your post you said something that I think is most important to remember!!! "My plan was to slowly craft an army that reflects the skills and talent that I have acquired since I started, I wanted this to be a labor of love." It sounds to me like what you really loved about warhammer was the modeling and painting and army preparation! You can and will do all those things when you put together you army and get it on the field , because most lizard men army's are the standard blue or green and all the models are the from the same saurus and skink boxes so the posses and molds are very similar so it will be very obvious how much better you army looks than most! To me that sounds like it would be very rewarding to you! May the old ones be with you!!!

 

[Bibamus]

don't quit, LM are awesome!

 

[WorkbenchManiac]

I appreciate the replies guys, thanks!

@ N810: Come on, give me some credit. I mentioned in the OP that I played 8th edition with my dwarfs. I am not dismissing it without trying it.

@ lord karnik: How much are you offering?

@ Tubbe: I agree with your assessment, but I am not too concerne with the minutiae of the rules. I did not think of warhammer as terribly deep before and I don´t expect my games to be high class chess.
But I want them to be fun and enjoyable, and in this department 8th seemingly dropped the bomb, at least in my experience. It is very frustrating to rapidly remove models from the table, that have alot of work and effort invested in them. In a game against dark elves I lost 35 dwarfs in the second turn, and he did not even use magic, 5 were shot, the rest fell during close combat, 14 warriors and 16 hammerers. Of course my units stood their ground, and in the next turn I flanked and broke the enemy, but removing 25% of your model count in turn 2 is frustrating. There is so much effort and work that goes into every single model, and all that just to remove them in droves frustrates me. Maybe I am just too accustomed to my dwarfs standing their ground and having solid armor, which meant a slow loss of models...

@ wolf: A good question. On the one hand I´d like to see this project through, but on the other hand I could spend my time on a project I´d even get to game with...

@oldblood62: True, to me modelling and painting have always been more important than the game.

@ Bibamus: They certainly are.


I guess you guys are right. It does not matter wether 8th sucks or not. Less games only means more time to sculpt, paint and convert. And with the restriction of "is this or that useful in the game?" removed, I can more freely choose my modelling projects.

Cheers mates, you were a lot of help.

 

[Skrox]

I know that a lot of people liked the old shuffle game, but I always thought it detracted from the fantasy of the game. We paint these elaborate sets and pieces to evoke the fantasy, but scooting your units back and forth tiny fractions of an inch while your opponent did the same in an attempt to be the one to get the charge that entirely determined the course of the combat is fundamentally detrimental to the fantasy of the game.

Even if it took a lot of skill to gauge those distances, that shouldn't be the essence of a combat game.

 

[strewart]

Also remember in another 4 years, there will be talks of 9th ed and another change. The rules and balance is constantly changing, you definitely seem like more of a modeller than a gamer so if you genuinely enjoy gluing and painting, don't worry about the state of the rules. And do remember if your opponents have similar thoughts to you, you can still play 7th ed.

 

[WorkbenchManiac]

@Skrox: Oh, I won´t miss the old charging rules. Those rules in 8th are okay, not good, but okay.
My complaints lie entirely with the "feel" of the game, which appears to me a little juvenile at times, with more "gore" and "bloodier","cooler" combats and "terrain with action feature karate chop". I exagerate a bit, but I hope you see what I am getting at.

As you said we don´t paint these elaborate miniatures just to shuffle back and forth, but I surely did not paint them to be removed instantaneusly, just because someone thinks it is "cool" to remove boatloads of models every turn.

But as I mentioned, this is my impression after playing 8th with my combat dwarfs, and the change to the parry rule, as well as the rule that you have to use great weapons if available means a 5+ armor save instead of 3+ across the board for my dwarfs, coupled with the many many attacks units dish out now this results in astronomical losses compared to before. My stoic dwarf warriors that could not be shifted by the gods themselves have now become axe wielding suicide units, that run in, kill and get killed, hopeing that the enemy dies first.

Can anyone maybe elaborate on how lizardmen fare this edition in regards to this concern? Do lizardmen loose models at a significantly higher rate than before?

@ strewart: True.

 

[Clockwork]

Step up. Probably the best thing to happen to Lizardmen in 8th edition. I play a lot of elven armies, and had pretty much resigned myself to never ever winning a combat unless I charged first. Now that casualties are taken from the rear of units, I have found I still take losses, but I'm able to dish out an equal (if not greater) amount of damage in return.

 

[Wolf]

Well if you want to keep your models alive as long as possible then the Lore of Life really is for you; make your guys harder to kill and when they do fall just resurrect them

Be careful though, Skinks drop even quicker than before; more people swinging means more wind which in turns means more dead skinks...

 

[ericb]

Manic,

I've got to agree with most of the points in this thread. Specifically two of them...

1. If you enjoy modelling and creating your army - continue to do so - the moment that stops bringing you pleasure is the moment you'll know you're ready to be done.

2. The joy of rulebooks is that they don't disappear (unless you throw them out) - play the version that makes you happy. I'm sure there are plenty of gamers like myself who aren't bothered by versions, but rather, just want to play a game... with any rules.

Plus, who else is going to post wickedly cool bases like yours? You could turn your labor of love into a profitable venture for yourself... just a thought.

 

[n810]

One thing a lot better in 8th
is not loosing whole units from
failing a fear test after getting
charged & having the whole unit run down.

This a lot more discouraging then just having
your unit loose a lot of casualties in combat,
at least they get to fight now.

 

[Gomek]

ROFL- I've so far played 1 8th edition game with my lizards- 1,000 pts against Empire.

I lost 18 Saurus Spearmen and about 10 skink skirmishers, about half my army, in the second turn of the game, from one spell...

I thought it was hilarious, to be honest, and in the best possible way. Within about 10 minutes it had gone from me winning to he winning.

I quite appreciate the randomness of it all. I'm just going to ignore the terrain chuff, and field bigger armies...

Oh, and gimp mages with my Slann.

The game has radically changed for the first time in far too long, and I'm really grateful. 4 hour 2,500 point games against meticulously anal generals used to drive me close to chewing off my own hands, but now the frustration can be overcome by some highly satisfying blammo magic, or ridicuously long range charges.

And, lets face it, everyone knows that the real victor of a Warhammer game is the general with the best looking army...

 

[Larinus]

I'm sure that after you have finished your project, and your army is arrayed on the table opposite another cool-looking army, then you can feel a sense of satisfaction as to what you've achieved.

And if you find your units are dropping like flies, then there are more opportunities for tactics, outmanouvering your opponent, tactically fleeing from charges. Games can be more fun now, as generals don't charge everything into the front line, thinking that they've got a much better unit than yours, so they will win. Now, any combat is dangerous, so it seems to me that this is a more tactically inclined edition.

However, I admit, I haven't played a game yet with 8th edition.
So I don't know how actual battles turn out.

 

[hellbreaker]

However, I admit, I haven't played a game yet with 8th edition.
So I don't know how actual battles turn out.

And that's 8th edition.

Cheers!