8th Ed. THE OLD WORLD - Poll: If GW were cutting back on TOW armies, which 5 would be the MOST expendable?

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Let's assume that Games Workshop decided to cut back on some of the 8th edition armies when transitioning to The Old World (maybe to make room for new stuff or some other reason entirely). If they came up to you and you had to pick 5 armies to discontinue moving forward into TOW, which 5 armies would you choose to eliminate from the new game?

**I should clarify that these should be the 5 most expendable armies to you personally, not which you feel the community at large would find the most expendable.

 

[pendrake]

I voted Beastmen, Chaos Dwarfs, Chaos Daemons, Dark Elves, Vampire Counts.

Fates

Beastmen, Chaos Dwarfs, Chaos Daemons:
Worked In with Warriors of Chaos....all the Chaos things can be fielded together in various combinations. Warriors of Chaos are nominally in charge.

Dark Elves:
Combined with High Elves or Wood Elves, the models stay around, but they cooperate with the not dark Elves. Combined armies are HE+DE or WE+DE.

Vampire Counts:
Folded In with Tomb Kings. All the undead are controlled by Nehekara. If somebody wants to field their VC army it represents an Empire Army or a Border Prince Army that went to the desert, got vanquished, and is now forever after serving the Tomb Kings. A TK General is required (could be a new model opportunity, intinerant Heirophant Or Living Nehekaran Necromancer.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That gets us down to 11 Factions without obsoleting any old models. (If this new reboot obsoletes Old models it will be Dead on Arrival and people will just keep carrying on with 9th age or whatever.)

 

[Just A Skink]

I pretty much agreed with @pendrake.

I voted for Beastmen, Chaos Dwarfs, Daemons of Chaos, because I think you could roll them into a general "Chaos faction" as well (curse you AoS). I guess it's not much different than Empire with it's various cities/regions.

Then I picked Ogre Kingdoms b/c I always thought those guys could just roll in with Orcs & Goblins. But that might just be the D&D coming out in me.

Finally, I chose Wood Elves. I struggled a bit with my last choice b/c I like most of the remaining armies. But, taking another page out of AoS (sigh), I thought that there could be a united "good" Elves army to oppose the "evil" Dark Elves. Again, you wouldn't eliminate models, but merge the armies.

I can totally see merging Vampire Counts with Tomb Kings, but I just like the idea of a "pseudo-European" themed Undead army. I could even see nixing Bretonnia, but (selfishly) I just like them too.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

This choice was much more difficult for me than the least expendable armies over in the other poll. Interestingly, my I ended up placing my 5th favourite army (Dark Elves) on my most expendable list.

To begin, I cast my votes under the assumption that there was no merging of armies, but rather the army was completely discontinued (models, rules and all).

To begin, obviously my least expendable armies (TK, WoC, LM, CD and WE) are automatically out of contention for this poll.

That left me with:
Beastmen
Bretonnia
Daemons of Chaos
Dark Elves
Dwarfs
The Empire
High Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs & Goblins
Skaven
Vampire Counts


Next I looked at what I considered to be armies that are integral to the warhammer community/game/lore at large. Daemons of Chaos, Dwarfs, The Empire, High Elves and Orcs & Goblins all fit this criteria. They are simply too important for the story and setting. It's hard for me to justify the removal of anyone of them (even if I am not that fond of some of them).

So I'm left with the following six:
Beastmen
Bretonnia
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Skaven
Vampire Counts

Of these six, I ultimately felt that Skaven was the most important one to keep since they are so unique and interesting. They have great lore and are very characterful. I just can't picture the game without them.

So my votes went to:

• Beastmen⇨ Easily less important than DoC or WoC, and I simply like CD significantly more.
• Bretonnia⇨ The game absolutely requires a "good" human faction, but it only really needs one. The Empire is FAR more important to the game.
• Dark Elves⇨ This was my toughest choice. I like DE more than most of the armies I spared from my most expendable list, but some of the others were more critical to the game (in my eyes)
• Ogre Kingdoms⇨ They're similar to O&G, and although I like them a bit more, it is undeniable that O&G are more important to the game.
• Vampire Counts⇨ Two undead factions and the Tomb Kings are way cooler. Easy choice!

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

To begin, I cast my votes under the assumption that there was no merging of armies, but rather the army was completely discontinued (models, rules and all).

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I voted:

Chaos Dwarfs:
They weren't really there before so axing them as the first choice is easy.

Bretonnia:
Didn't get any updates for a long time and is mostly just budget empire but with more cavalry.

Beastmen:
Just seems like a bland faction to me, especially lore-wise and aesthetically I find them atrocious.

Vampire Counts:
Kinda boring compared to Tomb Kings, the only thing they have going for them are the vampires, but that's mostly just characters and that's not enought for me.

Empire:
I don't like Empire, it's the most boring faction ever, it's just humans with silly uniforms and way too much powder (probably of various other kinds than just the black type) and karl franz is just stupid.
I'd almost say that I'd rather have SCE, but they have Sigmar which is just worse than Franz so I can't quite do that.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Chaos Dwarfs:
They weren't really there before so axing them as the first choice is easy.

Bretonnia:
Didn't get any updates for a long time and is mostly just budget empire but with more cavalry.

Beastmen:
Just seems like a bland faction to me, especially lore-wise and aesthetically I find them atrocious.

Vampire Counts:
Kinda boring compared to Tomb Kings, the only thing they have going for them are the vampires, but that's mostly just characters and that's not enought for me.

Empire:
I don't like Empire, it's the most boring faction ever, it's just humans with silly uniforms and way too much powder (probably of various other kinds than just the black type) and karl franz is just stupid.

Interesting... so you would be okay with TOW being released without a single "good" human faction? I find that either Bretonnia or The Empire are required to create the backdrop setting for WFB. The Empire has always been the one that classically fulfilled this role.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

Interesting... so you would be okay with TOW being released without a single "good" human faction? I find that either Bretonnia or The Empire are required to create the backdrop setting for WFB. The Empire has always been the one that classically fulfilled this role.

It probably would be a bad idea to not have a human faction I'll give you that, I just don't really like any of the two options, but if I had to choose one I'd much rather have Bretonnia than Empire, as that means less artillery; Personally though I'd be fine not having any human faction at all, but it would pose a question where all those skeletons that Tomb Kings have came from and that might be a bit weird even though the humans are much better that way

How are the either required though, if anything the only factions actually required is Lizardmen, Daemons of chaos and High Elves, since they were more or less the only relevant factions in the most important event in the warhammer timeline (I think).

If I could make my own human faction I'd probably choose Cathay, I guess it takes a bit from Ogre Kingdoms, but aesthetically it would be so much better than the horrendous Empire and it better accommodates more interesting and unique units and they likely wouldn't have a ton of artillery either.

 

[Just A Skink]

This choice was much more difficult for me than the least expendable armies over in the other poll. Interestingly, my I ended up placing my 5th favourite army (Dark Elves) on my most expendable list.

To begin, I cast my votes under the assumption that there was no merging of armies, but rather the army was completely discontinued (models, rules and all).

To begin, obviously my least expendable armies (TK, WoC, LM, CD and WE) are automatically out of contention for this poll.

That left me with:
Beastmen
Bretonnia
Daemons of Chaos
Dark Elves
Dwarfs
The Empire
High Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs & Goblins
Skaven
Vampire Counts


Next I looked at what I considered to be armies that are integral to the warhammer community/game/lore at large. Daemons of Chaos, Dwarfs, The Empire, High Elves and Orcs & Goblins all fit this criteria. They are simply too important for the story and setting. It's hard for me to justify the removal of anyone of them (even if I am not that fond of some of them).

So I'm left with the following six:
Beastmen
Bretonnia
Dark Elves
Ogre Kingdoms
Skaven
Vampire Counts

Of these six, I ultimately felt that Skaven was the most important one to keep since they are so unique and interesting. They have great lore and are very characterful. I just can't picture the game without them.

So my votes went to:

• Beastmen⇨ Easily less important than DoC or WoC, and I simply like CD significantly more.
• Bretonnia⇨ The game absolutely requires a "good" human faction, but it only really needs one. The Empire is FAR more important to the game.
• Dark Elves⇨ This was my toughest choice. I like DE more than most of the armies I spared from my most expendable list, but some of the others were more critical to the game (in my eyes)
• Ogre Kingdoms⇨ They're similar to O&G, and although I like them a bit more, it is undeniable that O&G are more important to the game.
• Vampire Counts⇨ Two undead factions and the Tomb Kings are way cooler. Easy choice!

Good rationale. I guess, I just took for granted that one might roll armies into another, to maintain the models, rules, etc. But it's a fair distinction. I think I'd change my vote a little if the armies were removed completely. I'd keep Daemons b/c that's a huge part of the Chaos lore, and probably nix Bretonnians. Even though I like Bretonnians (Arthurian-eque knights), I can see your points. Empire is MUCH more fleshed out and supported. I think I chose Wood Elves for a similar reason, the game only needs one good elf faction, and the old D&D gamer in me likes Dark Elves. I also still like the Gothic horror theme of the Vampire Counts, and I feel like they're distinct enough from Tomb Kings.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

How are the either required though, if anything the only factions actually required is Lizardmen, Daemons of chaos and High Elves, since they were more or less the only relevant factions in the most important event in the warhammer timeline (I think).

In regards to the timeline, that only really factors in if TOW were to take place in the past (Time of Legends). The story could be progressed and have the Lizardmen wiped out for instance (assuming the story takes place after the End Times (alternate reality or retconn). The High Elves would leave a bigger hole, but even they could be explained away by being conquered by some other race. Daemons of Chaos on the other hand can't be taken out because they are the stuff of Chaos and Chaos is the big baddie of the Warhammer Universe [plus GW can cross sell them with 40k]. Removing an army would not erase what they had done in the past and could be easily explained if the story is progressed.

As for why there has to be a human faction, Warhammer is a medievalesque fantasy, and you really need the humans to create that setting. The humans anchor the entire story and make the world feel lived in and relatable. You need a human perspective so we can better identify with it (being humans ourselves). It doesn't mean that you have to play as the human army, but they are needed to create the backdrop of the story. You need the everyday peasant just trying to survive in the big scary Warhammer universe. That was one the major criticisms of AoS until the Cities of Sigmar book was finally released. The world felt disconnected. If everything is a big baddie, than you have no contrast and nothing is a big baddie.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

In regards to the timeline, that only really factors in if TOW were to take place in the past (Time of Legends). The story could be progressed and have the Lizardmen wiped out for instance (assuming the story takes place after the End Times (alternate reality or retconn). The High Elves would leave a bigger hole, but even they could be explained away by being conquered by some other race. Daemons of Chaos on the other hand can't be taken out because they are the stuff of Chaos and Chaos is the big baddie of the Warhammer Universe [plus GW can cross sell them with 40k]. Removing an army would not erase what they had done in the past and could be easily explained if the story is progressed.

They would need to explain some major things about the vortex to do that. Sure the high elves aren't needed much after their ritual, but the Lizardmen keep their vortex running.

As for why there has to be a human faction, Warhammer is a medievalesque fantasy, and you really need the humans to create that setting. The humans anchor the entire story and make the world feel lived in and relatable. You need a human perspective so we can better identify with it (being humans ourselves). It doesn't mean that you have to play as the human army, but they are needed to create the backdrop of the story. You need the everyday peasant just trying to survive in the big scary Warhammer universe. That was one the major criticisms of AoS until the Cities of Sigmar book was finally released. The world felt disconnected. If everything is a big baddie, than you have no contrast and nothing is a big baddie.

I respectfully disagree.
I think most would probably like there to be humans, but I think the necessity of having them is more so a thing about most people being interested in humans and finding other beings weird or that humans are very often depicted as the successful underdogs.
I never even considered playing any human faction when I started off in the hobby and I don't think they give anything particularly interesting to the lore on the whole, basically because they are just humans (I realize that is kinda my own argument turned upside down, doesn't ruin it though). Other than being another faction not having done much else than be a minor wall for warriors of chaos what have they actually done?
I probably am heavily biased here to be honest, but I do not agree with your argument, especially the big baddie one, since there can easily be weak things without humans, just look at goblins, Skinks or snotlings, and regarding peasents I assume both Dwarfs and High elves have something of the sort so that is not unique to humans.
That it is medievalesque fantasy I think says more about the general level of technology than a setting having to have humans in it, really making humans is just the easiest faction to make since you can pretty much just go by history.

I should also say that I don't think you are completely wrong, and I do think having humans can give something extra, exactly because they are human and can be made distinct from Dwarfs and elves and helps make those two unique in comparison; It's just that personally I wouldn't have any problem at all to throw them out completely or radically change them.

Also I just don't like their way of playing, they rely too much on artillery and artillery is just too random and too powerful to be fun. Either you don't get to play with what you want or you try and the cannon blows up, which the Empire player might complain about, or it shoots you monster and makes its cost back too easily. But that's kind of a tangent I know so I'll stop there.

 

[pendrake]

It probably would be a bad idea to not have a human faction I'll give you that, I

Tomb Kings are a human faction, long dead humans... ...but in theory there was once a human empire called the Nehekarans.

That at least explains the supply of Skeltons.

If I could make my own human faction I'd probably choose Cathay, I guess it takes a bit from Ogre Kingdoms, but aesthetically it would be so much better than the horrendous Empire and it better accommodates more interesting and unique units and they likely wouldn't have a ton of artillery either.

I feel it necessary to note that the real world people corresponding to the Cathayans, are the people who invented gunpowder !!!

To create them as a faction but have them without “a ton of artillery” would seem silly beyond belief to a lot of people.

Anything The Empire could do to a poor undeserving monster with a Cannon the Cathayans could do with a rocket. They’d probably have several grades of rockets and cannons too. Only their cannons would be bronze, sculpted to look like dragons, and being lighter than iron, easier to move around and thus have a higher movement rate.

Worse! the Cathayans would have dragons. Six legs on the ground (never attack one in the flank: jaws and three claws from that angle) but they could still fly over obstacles. Because they’d be magical spell-slinging dragons. Sentient enough they could be an army’s general like a Slann, but with dragon armor and attacks and toughness.

I think I have just worked out why they never did up the Cathayans as a playable faction they’d be too overpowered !! if done up properly. This also explains why they persisted so long with no significant Chaos incursions — too dangerous.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I voted Beastmen, Daemons of Chaos, Empire, Ogres and Vampire Counts.

Beastmen and Daemons of Chaos: As different and unique as they are, as @NIGHTBRINGER says, they can just be folded into Warriors of Chaos, as Daemons originally were in Hordes of Chaos.

Empire: As @NIGHTBRINGER says, you only really need one good human faction. However, contrary to what he says, I say down with the bickering neo-Germans with the silly tight uniforms, and let Bretonnia be the main man for a change! Bretonnians are arguably more 'good' than the Empire as they are less fractious, have a rigid code of chivalry and have helped other factions out in their time of need more often. OK they would need more fleshing out, but I'd certainly be willing to have a go at lore-writing for them as I'd be responsible for the Empire's demise, and I'd imagine it certainly is possible to develop a lot more lore for them. Indeed compared to introducing such controversial armies like Sigmarines and Ossiarch, replacing the Empire with Bretonnia would look like a safe decision

Ogres: Again, as @NIGHTBRINGER says, Ogres are similar to Greenskins. Although they do look great and have unique mechanics, I’d say they are less central to the Warhammer lore as they are situated away from where most of the action is and much of their lore is unique to them and doesn't affect the main factions' lore that much.

Vampire Counts: Again, as @NIGHTBRINGER says, you only really need one Undead faction, and between the two, Tomb Kings are just 100% more original and unique. Indeed the idea of the only Undead faction being a neutral one that leaves you alone as long as you leave them alone would make Warhammer: The Old World stand out from most franchises that label Undead as being clear villains.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Empire: As @NIGHTBRINGER says, you only really need one good human faction. However, contrary to what he says, I say down with the bickering neo-Germans with the stupid moustaches, and let Bretonnia be the main man for a change! Bretonnians are arguably more 'good' than the Empire as they are less fractious, have a rigid code of chivalry and have helped other factions out in their time of need more often. OK they would need more fleshing out, but I'd certainly be willing to have a go at lore-writing for them as I'd be responsible for the Empire's demise, and I'd imagine it certainly is possible to develop a lot more lore for them. Indeed compared to introducing such controversial armies like Sigmarines and Ossiarch, replacing the Empire with Bretonnia would look like a safe decision

With a bit of work Bretonnia could easily fit the role. They do need a significant update though, while the Empire is ready to go as is. At least with Bretonnia we move even further away from Sigmar, which is a good thing.

I would say that the Empire has a significantly more diverse model range. Also their lore is better intertwined with some of the more important factions (Dwarfs, Warriors of Chaos, etc.).

That said, while I feel that Empire is the way to go, I wouldn't shed any tears if they updated Bretonnia and went with them instead. I doubt that would ever happen though.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I feel it necessary to note that the real world people corresponding to the Cathayans, are the people who invented gunpowder !!!

To create them as a faction but have them without “a ton of artillery” would seem silly beyond belief to a lot of people.

Possibly, but with what I found they didn't invent it, but it is known there, though they don't seem to use it for traditional cannons, besides I believe the army would have a different focus than artillery, so while they might have some, it would not be as strong as either Empire' or Dwarf's versions and it might all be in the Rare section.
Even if they were to have been to inventors they might have never perfected it, and instead used it more for fireworks. sure that could be used as artillery, but that's just the like the hellstorm rocket battery from Empire and they aren't bad at all compared to the other options.

Worse! the Cathayans would have dragons. Six legs on the ground (never attack one in the flank: jaws and three claws from that angle) but they could still fly over obstacles. Because they’d be magical spell-slinging dragons. Sentient enough they could be an army’s general like a Slann, but with dragon armor and attacks and toughness.

Probably no worse than so many other things, quite similar to Galrauch I'd imagine.

 

[Warden]

My list makes me sad

#1) Chaos Dwarfs. Because they never got added to the Old World as a "mainstream" army.

#2) Bretonnia. Because they didn't sell well and are currently shelved. Even though it would be sweet to have them back.

#3) Tomb Kings. Slightly less than #2, but see #2 for reason why.

#4) Beastmen. Didn't sell well, but they did get some new AOS recently. However they could be combined into a chaos supercodex.

#5) Daemons of Chaos. See #5 for chaos supercodex.

 

[Killer Angel]

Here are my votes:

1) Beastmen. Not enough interesting, kinda monodimensional
2) Bretonnia. one human faction could be enough, and I've never been a fan of Brets.
3) Daemons of Chaos: just pick some daemons and include them in WoC
4) Dark Elves. A pity… but THREE factions of elves are too much for my tastes. Standard Aelves are too much important and i like WE
5) Ogre Kingdom. As beastmen, i find them to be boring and uninteresting


My goal was to keep a certain duality:
normal Dwarfs vs Chaos Dwarfs work (and CD is a replacement for the loss of DE)
I don't mind 2 undead factions, also because the hate between them (Settra vs Nagash, Khalida s Neferata) makes them interesting antagonists.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Daemons of Chaos: just pick some daemons and include them in WoC

That idea could work. It has worked in the past in the Hordes of Chaos army book.

 

[airjamy]

Interesting to see some things overlap. I think ogres and orcs are pretty alike, so they can be melded into one. I also do not think we need more than one chaos faction, so just warriors/daemons would be fine. The last one was hardest.. so I picked bretonnia as we already have a human faction. Good poll though @NIGHTBRINGER , with interesting results!

 

[WildColonial Boy]

If GW did this, guaranteed it would be the armies that I own.
Dawi Zharr, Nurgle daemons, Chaos, Lizards, Ogres
I also have orcs and gobs and dwarves but these are iconic fantasy.

 

[Kilvakar]

It seems most people agreed with the votes I cast, as I voted for Beastmen, Chaos Dwarfs, Daemons, Ogre Kingdoms, Vampire Counts.

Beastmen: Because they're not that interesting to me as a faction, and because they could all be lumped in with a generic Chaos army.

Chaos Dwarfs: Because there's so little known about them, and they were never a fully-fledged army so not having them would be less of a loss than other factions.

Daemons: Again, could be lumped in with Chaos as a whole. Just include the option to theme your Chaos army around one of the four gods and you'd be able to include all the daemon types in different armies.

Ogre Kingdoms: Just...not that interesting. That's it, really.

Vampire Counts: Because vampires suck! (ba-dum-tish!) Not really, but I personally don't find them or their armies that interesting. I know that some of them are extremely important to the lore, but I think you could easily get away with having individual vampire counts exist in the world without having entire armies built around them. Plus, Tomb Kings are better!