8th Ed. The lack of grand fliers

[Mr Phat]

Lizardmen has no big flying beasts, and it seems weird.

Disclaimer: this is not a thread meant for ranting. While I know its impossible to have this thread without a "we should have gotten the Couatl and its stupid we didn't" comment or two, I would like if people limited it to that

so..

Many units wouldn't make sense in an Lizardmen army:

Chariots: makes no sense, its a jungle, you wouldn't be able to get through the terrain.

Long range archers: again, we are from the jungle. Trees bushes and other plants take the view thus making 24+'' shooting a hard thing to practice and maintain.

A big flier could also be neglected on the account of trees...it could simply mean that there is no room for a big beast to fly through the canopy......but....the fluff actually supports big fliers.

The book talks of Couatls (as most know), but it also mentions "a monstrous, sky-borne predator" in Tiktaq'to's weapons fluff. Though it also says that this predator is extinct, it still tells us that lustria CAN host big flyers.

So why doesn't it`? No Jungle-dragons? no lustrian-wyverns? (which would make perfect sense army-wise due to the poison thing imo)

What is it about the lizardmen that prohibits them from having a big flying-meany?
Is it the "we only use Dinosaurs" army rule?
Is it a "It would be to good" game-breaker problem?
Is it a "you got monsters enough" thing?

what are your thoughts guys?

 

[Anton_S]

It's a case of "we just didn't happen to design a big flying dinosaur this time around". There really isn't more to it than that.

 

[Mr Phat]

It's a case of "we just didn't happen to design a big flying dinosaur this time around". There really isn't more to it than that.

this time around, sure, but Lizardmen is a couple of editions deep, so my impression is that this must be a decided call and not just "oh we just never got around to it" .
Lizardmen players wanting a flier isnt a new thing, GW knows, thus they most have decided to just not take it into consideration.

 

[Sleboda]

We had dragons (and Spiders, Scorpions, Manticore...) in 3rd.


If there IS a conscious decision around it, I'd say it's one of two things-
1) "They already have enough monsters."
2) "This is just a really quick rehash. Shove it out the door now and move on."

As to bows (to get a little bit sidetracked), they could have them. You have to open your view to the scale of the Warhammer world. If Skaven, a tunnel-bound race, can have monsters, bells, and build entire multi-level cities inside caves, I bet there are trees so large the a bow shot could have a hard time reaching the next branch over.

Besides, it may be a jungle, but there must be clearings as well.

 

[Kroq]

It's a case of GW lazyness, it's easier to make double kit creatures as troglodon,ripperdactyls than a "new"one like Coatl

 

[n810]

Maybe; if we are lucky, forge world might make one.

 

[Putzfrau]

Honestly it would be the last thing I'd want. Not because it wouldn't be cool, but because it adds nothing new.

Lizardmen have flyers and they have beasties. A beastie flyer is just more of the same.

Some type of fast cav or heavy mournfang esque cav would be awesome.

More weapon and armor options for troops would be cool too. Some way to make saurus ws4 would be gravy....

Maybe flying saurus cav. Also sweet.

 

[cwalker]

Your heavy flier in Lizardmen is the Skink Chief on Terradon.

Light armor, shield of ptolos, dawnstone, blowpipe

AS of 4+ and a 1+ save vs shooting - that he gets to reroll

Use him as a super chaff eliminator - fly over a unit and drop rocks on it - then shoot it up with your blowpipe

BS 5 - he should be hitting pretty good - thats D3 rock hits and 2 poison blowpipe hits - should really hurt a light cav unit.

then he can go take out a war machine or just straight up charge another chaff unit - 4 str 4 attacks - not too bad

late game you can use him as a diverter - he is 131 pts and if he stops a flank charge on your Saurus then great.

Heck take two of these guys; armor of silvered steel and luckstone w/blowpipe. 2+ save with one reroll per game.

If you're feeling froggy take Rippers instead of Terradons - more hitting in CC but not as flexible I don't think

 

[cwalker]

Some way to make saurus ws4 would be gravy....

Maybe flying saurus cav. Also sweet.

Shadow Slaan - Miasma - make their enemies WS 1 and you've got it in the bag! I dare the opponent to dispel Miasma and let you put Mind Razor on the Saurus.

 

[Mr Phat]

Your heavy flier in Lizardmen is the Skink Chief on Terradon.

I think everyone should look under their bed for the anti-christ, cause if Skink cheifs have become heavy anything, it MUST be a sign of the end times

(no mockery intended mate, I see what you are saying)


While I do agree that a skink cheif can actually be a pretty solid fellow when mounted, and I do agree he is very usefull for the tasks you mention, then he isn't exactly Frostheart material

Surely you must know im talking flying MONSTERS when im putting Wyverns, dragons and Couatls into the semantics.

 

[cwalker]

I know what you're saying.

I'm just trying to come up with an alternative solution for the Lizards.

For 262 pts you get 4 wounds of high armor save, flying awesomeness.

Not as sexy as a Phoenix, but not much is.

 

[Mr Phat]

For 262 pts you get 4 wounds of high armor save, flying awesomeness

4 wounds? how come?
Skink has 2, mount has 2....the highest Wounds attribute is 2...thus they have 2 wounds.
Or are you talking of something I havn't seen before ?

and AMEN to the sexy bird.... the first thing im gonna do if 9ed allows allies is to get one

 

[GCPD]

I actually like that Lizards are a ground-based army, with only support units in the air (Rippers, Terras). Its a nice reversal to the usual suspects.

 

[Mr Phat]

I actually like that Lizards are a ground-based army, with only support units in the air (Rippers, Terras). Its a nice reversal to the usual suspects.

I'd actually like if I could replace the Navi on this fella with an Oldblood

 

[VampTeddy]

Because we got the carnosaur as our monster mount, and the stegadon!

I am more than satisfied with those 2, and bunches of small fliers tbh!

The carnosaur is in sme ways unique in it's very glass cannoney walking monster mount, and hits like a multiple wounds truck.

What could possibly replace that beast? and why would we want it when we have the lovable guy?

To me lizards don't at all feel like a dragoney race, only thing i could see happen was a big sorta flier (think arachnarok base) with a howdah for 5-8 skinks that drop the rocks they use for terradons down on enemies, a pure support kinda flier, that fits well in fluff, and goes well for any attempts to make a flying circus, in rare. maybe with a 2x giant bow, maybe even 3 x giant bow option?

I'd hate to have a mount option for the OB, nuh-ah, don't want it.

 

[Kroq]

I don't see why the big flier should be mounted

 

[cwalker]

For 262 pts you get 4 wounds of high armor save, flying awesomeness

4 wounds? how come?
Skink has 2, mount has 2....the highest Wounds attribute is 2...thus they have 2 wounds.
Or are you talking of something I havn't seen before ?

and AMEN to the sexy bird.... the first thing im gonna do if 9ed allows allies is to get one

Agh. I'm talking about taking 2 skink chiefs on terra dons. 131 pts each. Cheap!

Make more sense now?

 

[Mr Phat]

arh doh, of course that was what you meant!
Yea it make sense

 

[Dancing with Saurus2]

I appreciate that the point I'm about to make isn't really core to the discussion around flyers but you mention "Long range archers" in the initial post. We do have long range archers of a sort i.e. the giant bow on the back of a stegadon. It's not stretching the imagination to think that if 3 skinks can shepherd a salamander they can probably carry a giant bow!! I think it would be cool to have something akin to a bolt thrower although I'm not sure which rare/special choices I'd lose to accommodate them. Depends on the cost and capability I suppose.

I don't really think long range archers would add much because many of our shootie units are pretty quick and you can get them into shooting positions pretty easily but a shooting weapon with a decent strength would be great. Is the giant bow strength 6?

 

[GCPD]

Only S5, as I recall. I don't think that I've ever actually once hit anything with it, though...

Regarding bolt throwers, while it would be nice to have some long range Multiple Wounds, there is plenty of that in Piranha Blade Oldbloods and Sharpened Horns Stegadons (not as much access to it as Dwarfs have, but not bad either). Again, I like that Lizardmen shooting and war machines are all close ranged stuff on mobile monsters: it sets them apart from everyone else (although, its a shame that Razordons aren't Armour Peircing...).