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7th Ed. The Greater Daemon Thread

Grifthin
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Grifthin

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Alrighty - new army book for lizzies, new army book for Daemons.

I think we should put together a tactica on Dealing with:

Great unclean one
Keeper of Secrets
Blood thirsters
Lord of change.

Is anybody here familiar with the equipment and abilities these units can get ? I purpose that we work out tactics and strategies for dealing with these behemoths, be it magic, units, items or a combination there of. Once we have worked out a fairly comprehensive set of tactics we sticky it on the tactics forum, in a new thread, that's easy to find for new players. What say you ? Are there any Daemon players or people that have the book - that way we can get the items description, what they do, and what to expect from players.
 
I have a bit of experience fighting Lords of Change. They have toughness 6, Strenth 6, Movement 8, WS 6, BS 4, Initiative 5, Wounds 6, Attacks 5, and a leadership of 9.

These guys are tough. Not only do they take 4 spells, but they can fly to get whatever angle they want, they cause terror to deter things from charging them, and every attack is flaming just to kill regen. The times I have killed them have never been one solid plan. Once, I locked it into a big combat where a scar vet held off the attacks for one turn, then my saurus killed enough pink horrors to make the big guy vanish in an instability test. The second, I just bombarded the living daylights out of it with skinks.
The LoC has a ward save of 4+, but generally no armor. Blade of Realities may work, and the Carnosaur could counter the terror. Magically, he will shut you down. Or he will take that special banner of theirs and shut you down more. However, his spell casting is straight forward, not like dark elves with special rules, so it can be countered with enough dispelling. I like to hide a sheild of the Mirror pool in my ranks just to watch it hit itself.
Remember that it has Monster's line of sight, and use this to your advantage. It also has a unit strength of 5, so flank and rear and push for that instability test.
 
A friend of mine plays daemons, I could check that book when I meet him. ;)

Otherwise I've only got a little experience of fighting the daemons. I could say thou that a GUO(Great Unclean One) is to be either:

1. poisoned to death (he has a mean toughness) this might take time due to 10W 5+/regen

2. eaten by a carno and blade guy, lots of D3 wounds and some Ld will bring this guy down.

3. charged by steggie chief, impact hitting with a skink chief with lance will make him sad and watch the guy lose wound after wound.

I can fill this in with more stuff as soon as I get to look in that book. :smug:
 
not positive but i think the GUO is immune to poison and lets not forget pit of shades on greater daemons
 
I see nothing about immune to poison in the daemon Codex. he is however as follows:

Removed ~ Sammy

Poison could work, but t has the Daemon ward save, possibly armor and regen, and so many friggin wounds. I have to say that BoR is your best shot here, a good ol' failed leadership test, and if nothing else, strong hits from the Oldblood and Carnosaur. Maybe pit of shades, but it has only a 1/3 chance of working, and that's if you can get it cast. If we are including long shots, take cupped hands and force a miscast with a Slaan and hope to send it to Hell on a roll of snake eyes, but that is very unlikely. Lucky for me, my opponent never takes this beast.
 
Wow - That's awesome Serpent sire - Mind putting up the other 3 Daemons stuff as well ?

"Pestilent Mucus: For each wound done to the GuO, all models in contact must pass a toughness or suffer a wound. No armor allowed."

How the heck are we gonna nail this guy with a scarvet/old blood especially if he has this with trappings of nurgle ?
 
As a general proposition, I find the best way to deal with Greater Daemons is to pin them down with alot of static combat rez and make them take as many Instability tests as possible. This is true for most armies, not just Lizards. Issuing challenges helps this because it minimizes the number of wounds that can be done by the Daemon and keeps your unit at a higher unit strength longer.
 
The Problem is pinning them if they have high movement or flying - I mean seriously, try pinning a blood thirster - you need something speedy to catch that bugger.
 
Can we post some stats, or not at all ? I mean it's difficult to chat about something if someone doesn't know the stats. I can understand points values - but the other stuff ?
 
with the bloodthirster

1. Run away
2. Run away
3. if above points fail, a slann with lore of metal will rip it apart :D not failed me yet (make sure you use the skinks first though you want to draw out his dispell dice/scrolls
4. oldblood on carny(only if gets the charge) in most cases will best it,
4+ to hit with carny d3 wounds for each wound, old blood with BOR
5. did i mention running away :D

i know that a counter productive post but,
when a khorne greater deamon doesnt have frenzy it is broken,
frenzy would have fitted and would have balanced it out
 
You can mention stats in a sentence, otherwise it is indeed difficult to have any sort of discussion. :P But I removed a post which listed the entire statline of the GUO and all his special rules. This is not allowed on the forum :)
 
Grifthin said:
The Problem is pinning them if they have high movement or flying - I mean seriously, try pinning a blood thirster - you need something speedy to catch that bugger.
Click to expand...

The one thing that makes the thirster slightly easier to catch is it can't flee charges. But yeah, not much of a help. I think the bloodthirster would still be nasty if it couldn't fly. I mean, that's just taking it over the top.
 
Yeah, Sorry about that. I assumed that since I wrote the information myself, and didn't copy paste, it was fine to post. That is a bit difficult then, to discuss things from other armies when we don't know the stats. Does this mean I should just be creative in relating the stats such as "Toughness like a carnosaur" or just give up?
i guess that if you really need to know the stats of the Greater Demons, you can go to the GW website and under each model they list the stats, and perhaps the special rules (cannot recall). But it for sure does not list what the special rules do. On that, if some were to ask what a rule does, can we reply?
 
@ the Squib - Cool
Can we atleast keep a list of his daemonic gifts/weapons with what they do ? Just so we can talk about popular and possible equipment combo's. We don't need his stat lines then. Would that be cool ? Example:

Pestilential Mucus - Does wounds to you every time you wound the GUO - Could something like that stay ?


Yeah - a combat army has a insanely difficult time fighting through the GUO with Vestiments of Nurgle and Mucus, you take wounds if he gets wounded and he has regen/ward etc. Tough as nails - what do you do to kill something like that ? And does anyone know what the Iniaitve is for a GUO - Would pit of shades nail them ?
 
Let's just say the GuO's initiative is 4x that of a Saurus's. Pit of shades could maybe work, but since it can be upgraded to alvl 4 wizard, and I don't see why they wouldn't, spells may be hard to cast upon it. Also, there is that tricky banner that my opponent always takes, can't recall the name, but it basically lets them choose one lore and there is a -2 casting penalty for all spells from that lore. Also, it makes Light spells super hard to cast.
As far as combat res goes, I don't think it will hold. If they take the regen, that means a 5+ ward then the 4+ regen save, and on ten wounds, I think it will whittle away a force hitting it before you kill it. You would have to hold it very well in a challenge and outnumber it even more.
 
Challenging a GuO


Alright, so I have been thinking on challenging one of these guys as a way to hold them for static combat wins. With their strength and toughness out doing ours at every turn, save for strength in an OldBlood or if you have a skink chief's stegadon fight it, odds are against us unless we use better items. Oh, speaking of items, you may not know that you cannot use Law of Gold on Daemon gifts. Anyway, the GuO will cut away 3 from your armor (-5 first turn thanks to a flail) meaning even a hero armored up and on a mount is in danger. With all the other little tidbits about toughness tests and such, though not a big deal statistically but an unlucky roll can kill, challenging will by you 1 turn, 2 at best, 3 if you are rediculously lucky. i really doubt you could take down 10 wounds in 2 turns.

Play it out:

An Oldblood has 5 attacks. with weapon skill you expect half to fall away, leaving you at 2.5. next is to wound, where you again have a 50% chance of passing, so that leaves 1.75. Then comes the GuO possible armor which eliminates another 50%, .875. Next is a 5+ ward like all daemons, eliminate another 1/3 and you have .583. Then comes regen. After everything, you can statistically expect to land .291 wounds per turn attacking with a bare OldBlood.

In reverse, it will land .66 wounds per turn against you, statistically and that is on a bare OldBlood.

Claculating that out, it will take 5 turns for a GuO to kill you outright (assuming he sticks to statistics and you never break) and it will take you 34.4 turns to kill it. So, yeah, lovely stuff.
 
Most stuff is ok, in general chat. No-one is gonna care if you say a carnosaur is toughness 5 or piranha blade does double wounds or whatever. The problem is when you list statlines and rules like they are in the army/rule books. Otherwise it's fine :)

If you want the stats then you can always link to the GW page, which has them listed under each unit

Pestilential Mucus - Does wounds to you every time you wound the GUO - Could something like that stay ?
Click to expand...

I'd prefer it if we didn't. Post with the assumption that everyone owns the rulebook and has read it. So imagine you and a friend have both just bought the book and are discussing it. You can mention rules, but you wouldn't list them explicitly since your friend either knows them or could look them up himself. That's the way we must act on this forum to avoid any copyright infringement. As soon as this (or any other) site becomes a substitute for buying a book then we are on ground I'd rather not be on :)

I hope that makes sense, sometimes I find it hard to say what I mean! :P
 
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