8th Ed. Temple Guard Guardian Rule

[Marquis]

Question about placement of the Slann in the Temple Guard (who have the Guardians special rule).

Guardians reads in part: When a model with the Mage-Priest Palanquin special rule joins a unit whose front rank contains five or more models with the Guardians special rule, he must be placed in the second rank . . . If the unit's front rank is ever reduced to four or fewer models with the Guardians special rule, the model with the Mage-Priest Palequin special rule must immediately move to the front rank (displacing rank and rile models if necessary).

Question #1 - In the middle of the game I want to reform my Temple Guard to four wide, the Slann immediately is placed in the front rank, right? I can force him up to the front rank voluntarily by reforming right?

Question #2 - So let's say I have reformed the Temple Guard four wide and the Slann is in the front rank with say the champion and standard. Now what if they get in combat to the front and after the first round of combat I reform to five wide, bringing some temple guard from the back ranks up to the side to make a fifth column. Suddenly the unit's 'front rank contains five or more models,' the Guardian rule kicks in and the Slann 'must' be moved to the second rank, right?. But this violates the rule against reforming and taking models out of combat, no? Or does the army book specific rule forcing the Slann back to the second row take precedence over the general rule about taking models out of combat?

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[n810]

I believe it's "four or fewer models" that's total and not per rank.
otherwise the Slann must be in the second rank. *unless he accepted a challenge

 

[NexS1]

I would say that you're right about not being able to reform models out of combat. Though you can "make way". Which the slann can't do.

Also, why would you want the slann in the front rank?

 

[Pofadder]

You have it right that if you reform to 4 wide TG it does not meet the criteria to enable the guardian rule, as per armybook, thus the slann moves into front rank.

Also if you have a scar-vet or OB in the unit while being 5 wide you do not meet the criteria. as those characters do not have the guardian special rule either.

Now this means in my 1st example you can push slann to the front. This conflicts with BRB though as stated previously you cannot remove models from combat with a reform after the combat round.

I saw this topic was covered on TWF as well. I think you will find answers inconclusive as there is no clear rule support for what you would like to do. If anything most people will probably say no when you want to take the slann out of combat with that last reform.

If though there is a challenge issued to you in the next combat round you can decline and move back...right? That comes with its own cons though, especially if your slann is bsb as well.

my 2c...

 

[hdctambien]

Question #1 - In the middle of the game I want to reform my Temple Guard to four wide, the Slann immediately is placed in the front rank, right? I can force him up to the front rank voluntarily by reforming right?

You can do that. Also if you were running 5 wide and had 1+ ScarVets in the front rank, the Slann could pop into the front rank as well (but wouldn't have to)

Question #2 - So let's say I have reformed the Temple Guard four wide and the Slann is in the front rank with say the champion and standard. Now what if they get in combat to the front and after the first round of combat I reform to five wide, bringing some temple guard from the back ranks up to the side to make a fifth column. Suddenly the unit's 'front rank contains five or more models,' the Guardian rule kicks in and the Slann 'must' be moved to the second rank, right?. But this violates the rule against reforming and taking models out of combat, no? Or does the army book specific rule forcing the Slann back to the second row take precedence over the general rule about taking models out of combat?

I would say that you can reform down to 4 "Guardians" to force the Slann into the Front rank, but you would NOT be able to reform back to 5+ Guardians in the front rank because of exactly this paradox.

Because you cannot reform to take models out of combat, and by reforming in that way would move the Slann out of combat you cannot do that reform. You're stuck like that.

I believe it's "four or fewer models" that's total and not per rank.
otherwise the Slann must be in the second rank. *unless he accepted a challenge

The rule is actually "...a unit whose front rank contains five of more models with the Guardians special rule..."

I play challenges such that the Slann can't move into base-to-base with the challenger so it is fought using the rules for such situations (basically you fight the challenge assuming they are in base-to-base, but don't actually move any models)

Also, why would you want the slann in the front rank?

Heh. Combat with ethereal models and you had an extra 5 points so you gave your Slann a Magic Weapon? Or you're running Sword of Ani-Heros/Fencer's Blades/Savage Beast of Horros... on your Slann...

If though there is a challenge issued to you in the next combat round you can decline and move back...right? That comes with its own cons though, especially if your slann is bsb as well.

You can decline the challenge, but remember your opponent decides which character is moved out of combat. So, if you have more than just the Slann in the unit that strategy wouldn't work (also relying on your opponent to challenge isn't a great strategy unless your opponent is WoC)

 

[NexS1]

You can't make your slann ethereal AND have him in a unit. (edit: I read it wrong - combat WITH ethereals. I can understand that one, but you'd only be removing, presumably, one model from hitting the unit)
Also, sword of anti-heroes is wasted on a slann. It would be much better a choice to take with even a skink chief.
I can't think of a single situation where I would want my army general, who is arguably one of the best mages in the warhammer game, who also can cast any magic he wants from inside a combat, to be in base contact with an enemy.
Ignoring the whole magic casting thing, it also takes away 2 temple guards.

That's just my opinion though

Also, regarding the refusing challenges business, that would be all sorts of dangerous! If your slann gets sent back, he goes to the very back of the unit and his leadership can't be used (or hold your ground if he's your BSB)