8th Ed. succesful armies with small skink cohorts, why?

[pendrell]

Hey all, here is my question: are small skink cohorts a good choice?
Personally I find big skink cohorts units usefull because they can work well as a tarpit and will hold the ground for a while thanks to steadfast. Small skirmisher units are great for other reasons. But what's the point of having something in between that does not fulfil any of those roles satisfactorily? I am speaking of something like 10-18 skink cohort units. They are not as manoeuvrable as skirmishers and they will die on the first round of combat. Yet, I see many succesful lists on the net that employ these small cohort units. If we compare them with skirmishers, 10 skirmishers costs as 14 skink cohort. Why wouldn't you take an extra skirmisher unit?
There is obviously something that I am missing, please shine light upon me. Tactical advice is very much appreciated. Thank you!

 

[Khaluk]

I think some of the reasons people use small cohort Skinks or small Skrox units is that a unit of cohort is a cheap way to get around many of the restrictions in various comp settings. In Swedish Comp you get heavy penalized, if you have more than 4-5 skink skirmisher units, including chamelion skinks.
A little group of 10-11 skinks, can also provide you with a cheap banner if you play scenarios. The same unit of skinks, can even include a kroxigor and thereby either work as a "cheap" ld 7 magebunker for your skink priest, considering the alternative. Sometimes you dont want your priests in skirmisher units, because you want to use them as bait or you want to double-flee with them.
Furtermore, there are all the obvious reasons... range "12 poison javelins, and movement "6, basically gives you more shooting than just the skirmishers... A cheap unit of 10-15 skinks can also break steadfast, since they got ranks and are faster than most other infantry units in the warhammer world (Not looking at you, Ogres)
I am currently using a small unit of 11 skinks with a kroxigor, musican, banner and the poison upgrade... Monsters would think twice about clearing such a "Chaff" unit, since it has poison shooting and melee attacks. Yes, it may not achieve much on it's own. But I got Cowboys and Stegadons to hold enemy units up, and use the guys to break steadfast or as a hinderance/shooting penalty wall for said units.

 

[MHK Pathfinder]

Like Khaluk, I also run small cohorts in almost all of my games. I usually run 11-12 skinks with a banner (sometimes), musician (always), and a kroxigor (always).

Our local meta reads the krox rule as it MUST be targeted if possible (an interpretation I don't agree with, but that's another point altogether). This makes the skrox unit a much more powerful flanker unit, as the few supporting attacks directed at the unit must go towards the kroxigor in most cases.

But besides that, it's just a really versatile unit that will surprise you. I usually don't equip the unit with poison (that's 22-24 points I can fit elsewhere in my list), but I do see the advantage.

I like to run really mobile armies, and the Skrox unit is a pretty important part of my go-to core points. Keep them out of the enemy front and they can really cause some mayhem with a few favorable dice rolls.

 

[conquahex]

I have recently been running a unit of 16 skinks with 2 krox largely for the reasons posted above. it's still relatively cheap and can go toe-to-toe with a surprising number of units. I can see the case for fielding more, smaller units, but I still like to have the extra bodies and attacks. It is also a much safer place to keep a banner. Why do you guys opt for a 5x3 unit?

 

[Hinge]

As been mentioned, comp restrictions and tournament scenarios (anything with fortitude) are the prime reasons.

I also find it gives another place to park cowboy scarvets since they can not join skirmishers. With the rise of RBTs and BS shooting, this can be important.

 

[Pofadder]

A skink cohort 10 strong with muso only is cheaper than skirmishers. When using redirectors and sacrificial units the cheaper the better. But for that cheap cost they have poison javelins (still one of the best things about LM) 5 armor save and a parry save. And they rally on a 6.

That is why people say skinks are the best core out there, everyone may not agree, but I think they are crazy good for their cost cohort or skirmish.

Of course as mentioned certain comp packs limits skirmishers so this plays a role too....sneaky way of getting more poison shots into your list.

I feel that redirection is a vital part of my playstyle and I want to do t as cheap as possible.

 

[Pinktaco]

Maybe I'm mixing the rules but you can't actually March and shoot with cohorts csn you? Isn't that just skirmish units or have I completely misunderstood?

 

[D43m0nSp4wn]

Maybe I'm mixing the rules but you can't actually March and shoot with cohorts csn you? Isn't that just skirmish units or have I completely misunderstood?

No you aren't misreading the rules, quick to fire doesn't let you march and shoot it just negates the penalty for doing so if you are otherwise able to. It's the key difference between cohort and skirmishers really for me (apart from the obvious reforming flexibility of the skirmishers), the threat range.

 

[Putzfrau]

Skink cohorts should literally never be used as a tarpit.


There's almost no reason to ever have more than 20 in a unit.


Or to take kroxigor.

 

[GCPD]

Disagree. They make excellent tar pits for single characters or other lone models.

They aren't so great for any ranked unit of course.

 

[conquahex]

Skink cohorts should literally never be used as a tarpit.


There's almost no reason to ever have more than 20 in a unit.


Or to take kroxigor.

Yeah, would you care to explain this comment?

I mean, sure, from what I understand lizardmen shouldn't be in the business of tarpitting at all, but if someone is looking to write a different type of list, are cohorts actually a worse option than sauri or something else in our book? There's the old argument that against S6, the two die at the same rate, and actually, even against Ws3 S5, you lose fewer points per enemy attack with a skink unit compared to a saurus unit. Isn't that one of the idea of a tarpit? They're also fast so they can get up in the face of whatever nasty you want them to fight, and they can reform for 20 stand-and-shoot shots at any range.

 

[Putzfrau]

Skink cohorts should literally never be used as a tarpit.


There's almost no reason to ever have more than 20 in a unit.


Or to take kroxigor.

Yeah, would you care to explain this comment?

I mean, sure, from what I understand lizardmen shouldn't be in the business of tarpitting at all, but if someone is looking to write a different type of list, are cohorts actually a worse option than sauri or something else in our book? There's the old argument that against S6, the two die at the same rate, and actually, even against Ws3 S5, you lose fewer points per enemy attack with a skink unit compared to a saurus unit. Isn't that one of the idea of a tarpit? They're also fast so they can get up in the face of whatever nasty you want them to fight, and they can reform for 20 stand-and-shoot shots at any range.

If you're looking to just die, sure. Then the issue comes in "Wheres your hammer? Whats killing things?" With a skink tarpit you're essentially just losing points. Its a skaven slave unit thats 250% more expensive.

The problem comes from taking a unit that is really really good at one thing, and forcing it to do something else. Sure it CAN be used as a tarpit, but why would you want to? Just like why would you want to use a saurus unit as JUST a tarpit.

I think the whole concept of wanting to use a tarpit for the lizardmen is a flawed one. If you want to use one just to "do something different" that it pretty much doesnt matter if you're winning or losing or what anyone thinks.

 

[GCPD]

If you're looking to just die, sure. Then the issue comes in "Wheres your hammer? Whats killing things?" With a skink tarpit you're essentially just losing points. Its a skaven slave unit thats 250% more expensive.

The problem comes from taking a unit that is really really good at one thing, and forcing it to do something else. Sure it CAN be used as a tarpit, but why would you want to? Just like why would you want to use a saurus unit as JUST a tarpit.

I think the whole concept of wanting to use a tarpit for the lizardmen is a flawed one. If you want to use one just to "do something different" that it pretty much doesnt matter if you're winning or losing or what anyone thinks.

That's what most tarpits do, though: they hold things up by dying in droves, but because there is so many of them they stick around forever and pin things in place. That's what Skavenslaves, Goblins and Zombies do. And just like those things, Skinks are in Core and are pretty dirt cheap: at 5 points a pop you can easily fit 40 of them into Core and still have lots of room for Saurus or more Skinks; let alone having the remaining 75% to spend on killy stuff. Sure they are a bit more pricey than those other units, but that cost comes with Poison, better movement and added resilience. In any other book I bet that you'd see lots of 40+ units.

The problem in the Lizardmen book is that its generally more efficient to take lots of cheaper units and use them to redirect than it is to take one big one and use it to tarpit. Taking three Skirmishers instead of one block of 40 means that two of those units can be hopping round throwing Javelins whilst the first is being thrown in the way of something; whereas once you commit the tarpit, by its very nature, it can't contribute anything else. Skaven and Vampire Counts certainly don't have access to those sorts of things which is why you see so many big units of Zombies and Skavenslaves, whereas Lizardmen and OnG do and consequently don't tend to field big units of Skinks and Goblins (although you are far more likely to see the Gobbos).

 

[Putzfrau]

The difference being all those armies have reasons to hold something up. Generally they have fast monsters or blender lords or war machines. Lizardmen have none of those things. They need skinks to do damage, nd it's hard to do that on a big unwieldy bus that prevents 3/4 of your unit from shooting.

 

[VampTeddy]

The difference being all those armies have reasons to hold something up. Generally they have fast monsters or blender lords or war machines. Lizardmen have none of those things. They need skinks to do damage, nd it's hard to do that on a big unwieldy bus that prevents 3/4 of your unit from shooting.

Which is, quite frankly, exactly what GCPD stated in his previous post.

He isn't defending the stand pt as tp whether you SHOULD use a skink tarpit, but rather that you CAN, even though you have better options.

It's an argument of viability, and i for one certainly agree with GCPD, skink cohorts do not do bad as a tarpit, they actually perform quite well, but as he, and you mentioned, we have better core options, compared to the other armies - Skink skirmishers, which essentially annuls our need for large tarpits. That however does not meen that we cannot use Skink tarpits efficiently, while not part of the top tier lists, it is by no means a "soft" choice to bring a unit of 40 skinks in a horde, and it effectively still gives space for several units of skirmishers, but costs you either an extra cohorts or skirmishers.

We do have some other problem solutions, and 40 skinks does not eliminate our entire standard core solution, it simply changes it. Scar veterans are still out of core, so are the slann, so are the TG, and so are stegadons.

Again, the argument circles around a viable alternative, nor the optimized list as far s i can discern.


On a completely unrelated note however (though in the spirit of the post a very related note) this argument should be continued in a post called "big units of skink cohorts - are they competitive?" to not go any further in a thread targeted at small cohort units (assuming everyone agrees 40 ain't small)

 

[Putzfrau]

Didn't mean to seem like i was disagreeing with his post, because i was not. I understood his point.

 

[D43m0nSp4wn]

Actually though Skink hordes, particularly with the poison upgrade (I know this makes them a bit on expensive side) can do a significant amount of damage. I've had a 10x4 hold up a large (30ish) unit of hammerers for 3 turns and when they finally broke there were not many hammerers left at all (maybe 6 if memory serves)

Now I realise that this is not optimal by any stretch and there are other options available, but it really is viable particularly if your opponent is expecting an MSU skirmisher army and then isn't prepared for a skink horde.

 

[GCPD]

The difference being all those armies have reasons to hold something up. Generally they have fast monsters or blender lords or war machines. Lizardmen have none of those things. They need skinks to do damage, nd it's hard to do that on a big unwieldy bus that prevents 3/4 of your unit from shooting.

I think that if you are relying on Skinks for all your damage then you are going to have a bad time.

Tarpits aren't just useful for an anvil whilst something comes in to kill - sometimes you just want them to take an enemy unit out of the game for 2 or 3 turns. Arguably that's a better use as the tarpit will bleed combat res which could throw any flanking unit in doubt (this is the problem that VC especially have but is true for anyone). Nonetheless Lizardmen have plenty of combat units which would MUCH prefer a flank charge into something that is held up (Kroxigor, Ripperractyls, Stegadon etc).

But yes, as we've sort of agreed and in answer to the OP is better to have smaller units doing this through redirection than one big one. Pf course if we could get Great Weapons on cheap Skink characters like OnG goblins then ir would be a COMPLETELY different story.

 

[Putzfrau]

Yeah. I mean I suppose it all comes down to what you wanna do as a player. If you want a tarpit unit, for whatever reason, it doesn't really matter if multiple small skink units are more effective. It's not a tarpit and that's what you want.

I think to that end skinks CAN be used as a big blob to hold things up. I just think it's important to at least recognize that it's probably not the best way to spend your points. That it removes a lot of what skinks excel at and most other tarpit utilized by other armies (slaves and zombies are probably the best example) are significantly more effecient.

/shrug. Dunno what else there really is to say on the subject. I think we've about covered everything

 

[pendrell]

Thank you all for the inputs. I understand that everybody agrees that skirmishers are choice #1 and that you would choose small cohorts only if you are playing with a comp that doesn't make it worth to have too many skirmishers. I also understand that if you want to redirect only, 10 skink cohorts are cheaper than 10 skirmishers so it may be a better idea to choose the cheapest unit if you plan on it dying anyway. However, I am still puzzled about the "almost small" skink cohorts. Like 11-20 skink cohort units. What' s the point? In my head either you field skirmishers or you field a very cheap 10 skink cohort unit or you field a tarpit.