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8th Ed. Stegadons

twistedmagpie said:
Lizardmatt said:
Devastating Charge is better than I initially thought. +1 attack for the Steggadon, +1 attack for each crew.

-Matt
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This can only be the steg. No way are they going to allow us '6' extra attacks for 10 points?!?!?
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With 5 of those being WS2 S3, and only on the charge, I wouldn't care.

-Matt
 
I agree with you Matt. I think that the wording of Devastating Charge in the Rule Book combined with the wording in the Army book makes it pretty clear that the whole unit is affected. I think the skinks do therefore benefit from the extra attacks. And like you said, i'm pretty sure you won't have too many complaints from other players about the extra 5 str3 attacks.
 
A Steaming Kroak said:
I think that the wording of Devastating Charge in the Rule Book combined with the wording in the Army book makes it pretty clear that the whole unit is affected.
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I have a feeling that the Unstoppable Stampede and Sharpened Horns upgrades are supposed to be under the influence of the "Ridden Monsters and Special Rules" rule on page 105 of the BRB which states "special rules that apply to a ridden monster do not normally apply to character<sic> riding it".

However, the Howdah Crew is not a character, and the closest that special rules gets to implying that the "Ridden Monsters and Special Rules" rule applies is by saying "A monster with this rule is *ridden* by a number of Skink Crew"

As the rules are written you could probably play it either way and as Matt said, 5 extra skink attacks isn't going to get you much against anything your stegadon should be in combat with so it's hardly worth arguing with an opponent about.
 
The Howdah Crew and monster are treated as a single model, as per the Howdah Crew rule on p.45. The Unstoppable Stampede rule on p.45 says that a model with this upgrade has the devastating charge special rule. Since the whole monster is treated as a single model, and the upgrade affects the model, I think that the wording shows that the crew would get the Devastating Charge rule.

I'm not saying that this is a great upgrade, but if it affects the skinks then it might actually be worth taking.
 
I'm pretty sure that RAW means the Skinks get the attacks. They are not "a character" riding the monster. However, it's largely irrelevent either way, as it's only for one turn and they're only WS2 skinks.
 
This case is the same with savage beast of horros.

Do a cowbow hero get the +3 S +3A and so the cold one? Same weird wording on the rule not making clear enough and of course not faq'ed.

If you apply common sense the upgrades are options for the Stegadon not the crew above it.
By common sense only Steg gets +1 A on charging. By unclear rulres , 5 skinks and the stegadon.

So you can exploit that kind of s*hit.
 
A Steaming Kroak said:
The Howdah Crew and monster are treated as a single model, as per the Howdah Crew rule on p.45. The Unstoppable Stampede rule on p.45 says that a model with this upgrade has the devastating charge special rule. Since the whole monster is treated as a single model, and the upgrade affects the model, I think that the wording shows that the crew would get the Devastating Charge rule.
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Mathematically speaking, I disagree with your assessment.

Proof By Contradiction

Given:
Devastating Charge: "Models with this special rule have +1 Attack"
Howdah Crew: "The monster and its howdaw crew are treated as a single model"

Suppose both the Crew and Stegadon get the effects of the Devastating Charge rule. so, by definition the Model goes from 8 attacks to 14 attacks (3 stegadon + 5 skinks normal +1 stegadon +5 skink devastating charge attacks). This is an increase of +6 attacks.

- The Stegadon and their crew count as a single model (Howdaw Crew rule)
- The Devastating Charge rule gives models +1 attack (Devastating Charge rule)
- A single Model should get +1 attack (8 normal +1 devastating charge = 9)

Thus, we are forced to conclude that each skink and the stegadon do not get +1 attack per the rules as written because that would result in the Model getting +6 attacks when the rule calls for the Model to get +1 attack.

Otherwise you are arguing that the stegadon & crew is a single model so that the Devastating Charge rule applies to the crew as well, and then ignoring that the stegadon & crew are a single model when applying the Devastating Charge rule.

However, as written, this does not say that you can't give the +1 attack to one of the skink crew members instead of the Stegadon. As long as the single model does not end up with more than +1 attack due to the Devastating Charge rule.
 
Your mathematical argument is much more convincing than the character on ridden monster argument. Although there is still a question of interpretation in the devastating charge rule. It can be interpreted as +1 total attacks added or it can be interpreted as +1 attacks to the model's profile. I would probably play it as +1 total attacks if I were to use the upgrade (which isn't likely) as to avoid any argument.

At this point I think it is just another question that we will have to wait and see if Gamesworkshop decides to resolve with an FAQ.
 
A Steaming Kroak said:
Your mathematical argument is much more convincing than the character on ridden monster argument. Although there is still a question of interpretation in the devastating charge rule. It can be interpreted as +1 total attacks added or it can be interpreted as +1 attacks to the model's profile. I would probably play it as +1 total attacks if I were to use the upgrade (which isn't likely) as to avoid any argument.

At this point I think it is just another question that we will have to wait and see if Gamesworkshop decides to resolve with an FAQ.
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If it isn't on the profile, you can get some interesting problems. A Bastiladon gets 3 attacks, one of which is S10 tail attack. If he could devastating charge, since it isn't the profile, I'll take a 2nd tail attack thank you very much.

The reality is it doesn't matter if the skinks get it or not; it's still not worth 10 points.
 
Well, I agree with the comment that it isn't worth ten points when it only gives you a single attack, but only if the stegadon is fighting rank 'n file units, for example 20 goblin archers..

When you use the model for monster hunting, like giants, the extra attack could be very useful.. if you use it for hunting monsters and you have this set-up: ancient stegadon, devastating charge, sharpened horns, you will cause D6+1 impacthits, that will be 4,5 hits, normally wounded on 4+ so 2,25 wounds which could be multiplied! When fighting a monster which isn't allowed to make a armour save it would be 4 wounds so still some damage needed to make it fall down..

This is the point when devastating charge will be useful, when having 3 attacks, 1,5 hits are made and 0,75 are wounded, so 0 or 1 wound, when having 4 attacks, hits are made and 1 wound so i think it gives you more certainty when fighting monsters
 
At the end of the day, we tend to pay 10pts extra for most champions, i.e. saurus, braves etc. The only point of them is 1 extra attack anyway so it makes perfect sense for the 10pt devastating charge to give the whole model only 1 extra attack.

To be honest, people here are simply trying to exploit a rule which is not the point of the game. Your there to have fun anyway so stick with it guys.
 
twistedmagpie said:
At the end of the day, we tend to pay 10pts extra for most champions, i.e. saurus, braves etc. The only point of them is 1 extra attack anyway so it makes perfect sense for the 10pt devastating charge to give the whole model only 1 extra attack.

To be honest, people here are simply trying to exploit a rule which is not the point of the game. Your there to have fun anyway so stick with it guys.
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I agree with the exploit part, for me this looks like a wording abuse... About the champion, it is much more than +1A, it allow you to challenge or accept challenge in order to lose less model.
 
Hebus said:
twistedmagpie said:
At the end of the day, we tend to pay 10pts extra for most champions, i.e. saurus, braves etc. The only point of them is 1 extra attack anyway so it makes perfect sense for the 10pt devastating charge to give the whole model only 1 extra attack.

To be honest, people here are simply trying to exploit a rule which is not the point of the game. Your there to have fun anyway so stick with it guys.
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I agree with the exploit part, for me this looks like a wording abuse... About the champion, it is much more than +1A, it allow you to challenge or accept challenge in order to lose less model.
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Nobody should buy a champ for +1 attack. You buy the champ so the vampire has to murder the champ while both your cowboys butcher a stupid number of ghouls.

Compare Devastating Charge to The skaven pelt banner. If I give the banner to a scarvet BSB, and put him in a unit of cold ones, how many attacks does each cold one get?
It gives frenzy to the unit, which gives both the mount and the rider +1 attack.
Why doesn't giving the unit devastating charge work the same way?

-Matt
 
Because devastating charge gives +1A per model. Stegadon and crew is one model and one only, so it gets +1A not +6.
 
Frenzy also gives each "model" +1 Attack. The BRB is quite clear about that. Frenzy's "Extra Attacks" rule and the Devastating Charge rule use the same wording, so they should be applied in the same manner.
 
Whenever I have played someone with 'Frenzy', +1 attack works only per model be the model on foot or mounted. Cold one or other ridden beast do no get the extra attack.

Unstoppable stampede is an upgrade to the stegadon, not the crew.
 
If you have a unit of rippers, you have frenzied rippers, no frenzied skinks, even if it is funny when thinking about it!
Skavenpelt banner is another piece of cake! Because everybody in the unit gets frenzied! So not only the rider but rider and beast..
 
That is not correct.

Depending on the unit, Frenzy can apply either to one individual part of a model (such as a rider or a mount), or to each piece separately. There are clear examples of both cases in the army books. Applying to an individual piece of a model is an exception, however, and when it occurs it is specifically called out by a special rule that instructs you to ignore the normal behavior (such as with Ripperdactyls). In cases where it is applied to the model or unit as a whole, it is added to the profile of all parts of that model. (See: Frenzied skinks on a stegadon; frenzied handlers with a monster; frenzied war machine crew; frenzied cavalry riders and mounts.)

The rules taken as a whole clearly intend this, and anywhere this norm is violated, the rules in the army books take great trouble to specifically spell it out. This is also why there needed to be a special rule for Characters on Monsters, clarifying that in this specific case, the benefits for Frenzy do not apply across both.

Devastating Charge uses the same wording, and clearly should apply the same way as the well established frenzy rules, unless a special rule tells you to do otherwise. If it is added to the profile of a multi-part model, each part of the model gains the new rule, unless the rule tells you specifically to only apply it to the profile of just one part.
 
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