7th Ed. Staying Sober While Operating Heavy(Lizardpowered) Machinery

[Flint13]

My dad always used to tell me "God, I dont know how to stay sober with all this whine..." A bad pun to be sure, but one that I believe is starting to become increasingly more applicable to our beloved hobby.
So now that I'm starting to get back into the gaming pretty heavily, I"m noticing a disturbing trend. From both my general gaming group, and especially from folks at the few tourneys I've checked out recently. Everyone seems to have ideas on models/combos/magic items/whatever that are repeatedly refered to as "broken." Formost in my mind at the moment is the dark elf hydra. Torrents of moans and complaints are hurled at the dark elf general who deploys one... and if he is so uncaring and arrogant as to field two in a two thousand point game? I believe he is then elevated to some sort of terrorist style gaming watch group...

The thing is, I've never had a problem dealing with a hydra. Cold one cavalry, a well placed steg, slaaning the crap out of it, I manage to find a way and it never seems to be unfairly hard. Admittedly sometimes its been more challenging that others, sometimes the hydra will do something game winning for the other guy, sometimes it gets killed without achieveing much of anything. As a lizardmen player, I seem to have a good unit counter to most things, and I never feel as though I'm ransacking my opponent if he hasn't done something to deserve it.

I know when I first started out after picking up the hobby again and lizards for the first time, I did great with something like... (hold on... addition...) 12 power dice, not including the free ones from focused rumination. My slaan and 2 engine priests would wreck stuff with magic up until it got close. Then I'd just send an otherwise untouched steg plowing into the first almost demolished unit to get within charge range. Then I fought a steady khorne WoC player and was wrecked myself in turn... followed by a fluffy all marauder WoC player, followed by a scarily under artilleried empire army. I was beaten by certain types of armies easily, while I beat other types easily in turn. Every time I had fun, learned something and shaped my list a little differently. Now I've gotten to the point where I use a list many folks at tourneys would immediately label "fluffy" or "soft" and I do pretty darn well for the most part. What I don't understand, and why I started this thread to get a general oppinion of from my fellow lizard players, is the thoughts on the attitudes of the general player masses. It just seems that so many people are immediately ready to call "BROKEN!" on the first unit or combination that they can't steamroll over (or one that causes them to loose out on a 20-0 massacre victory). Its like your little brother immediately accusing you of cheating when you beat him in a game of halo. Rather than accepting you may not be the best general, or maybe the dice just didn't go your way this time, maybe you should have thought out the reprecussions of that last charge better, it must be something wrong with the game, the other guy, the other guy's list...etc. Is it that much of a problem not to win both easily and constantly? I think its mostly from the people who have turned warhammer into more of an equation than a game to enjoy, but sadly, I'm seeing it turn up more and more outside of the tourney environment with the super hardcore players who tend to open up a new army book with calculator in hand. It really bothered me just last night, there was an awesome Ogre Kingdoms VS Dark Elves 2000 pointer about to go on at my gaming club. I was really looking forward to it as i've never seen that matchup before, but as soon as the Ogre player saw good 'ol DE Bill getting out the hydra model he threw out "Oh, sorry, I thought you were going to actually try playing a fair game. You know, the kind thats fun for both people." Now, I know thats an extreme case, and that some folks are going to be far better/worse than others, but I was just curious what you guys thought of it. Just the current atmosphere and attitudes around your regular gaming haunts. Am I hitting on something? and if so, what do you think could be a good way to help people get back to thinking of it as a game to have fun with? Or am I just way off the mark on this one... heh, am I the one getting everyone else drunk on way too much cheap whine? ^_^ Also I wanted to try playing with the forum's poll feature!

 

[Walgis]

in my club one dude whines all the time when i place atleast one eotg i think he never won againts me, well atleast that was very long time ago. but the main idea is that he is playing so bad as a rock for swiming. he just has an idea that everything he puts on a table has to deastroy anything! lol. that kind of people gets on my nerves, but of well its fun to lough when they get mad or i roll 6es on bouth of my eotgs

LESS WHINING MORE THINKING!!!

 

[Eagleblaze]

I do agree that people do whine a bit too much, and there are construction issues with some armies out there, i.e. deamons, but nothing that can't be overcome AT ALL. I do however also think that boredom and a lack of originality can come into it. For example, I play the same deamon player quite often, every game he does the same thing, Keeper with ASF, no armour saves allowed, 20" movement combined with leadership reduction from masque, and a BSB with 20" move and -2 LD penalty banner. This is a nasty combo, anyone can see that, so far my general hasn't managed to stand against it yet, it is however NOT unbeatable, a snake eyes miscast or apparently a stand and shoot from 10 skinks will down that keeper with ease. The point is that I don't want to play the same game over and over again, nor do I want to feel like I'm the only one of the two of us playing a challenging game.

Morale of the story, some players play to win at all costs, some people play for fun, these two types of people don't really mix completly.

-Eagle

 

[Flint13]

Doesn't it seem like so many problems that other people keep having, we solve easily by throwing skinks at it? ^_^

 

[strewart]

Too many words in this thread. I personally think the hydra is overpowered, and very hard to kill, but it certainly doesn't break an army. If I was playing competatively, hell everything is fair game really so bring the pair of them on I am sure my list would cope. Friendly games, I would be annoyed at 2, 1 can be dealt with.

GW went through a strange phase that started with the Varghulf being quite powerful for the points, then the Hydra being nuts, and finally the Skaven Abomination blotting them all out for cheesiness for points. Then a massive drop for the BM with rather crap rare choices. Who knows what that was all about. In mild doses, I will happily fight it, acknowledge it is powerful but not unbeatable. Large amounts? I'm not a serious player, I don't care enough to bother with opponents that want to just take the most powerful things.

 

[Nakai]

the gaming group im in all of us like to see what kind of nasty things we can bring to the table. And when we see something like 2 hydras in 2000 points or Kholek Suneater and two other shaggoths we all just kind of see it as a personal challenge to try and take the things down. I think it makes the game more fun when opponents do things like that it makes the game more difficult and makes me think of different ways to use my units to try and coupe with the new challenge, defeating things like that also make the victories all the sweeter

 

[Chahlie]

I can't really speak for for warhammer fantasy, but I've noticed that most people are becoming better sports about 40k recently. The game keeps getting more balanced, which seems to have calmed most of the people down. I also think that as rules become more clear and less interpretive, people have less to whine about.

 

[Flint13]

Nakai, you are a gentleman after my own heart. Thats the attidtude I wish more people would come to a game with! Imagine how much better a victory it is when you kill off 2 hydras and an "unkillable" dreadlord on a manticore! Admittedly i've never had to fight kholeck accompanied by 2 shagoths... seems kinda a pain. Kholek is the one thing so far (besides a wayward cannonball) that has ever trashed my carnasaur. I've blowgunned the poo out of a normal shaggoth pretty easily before though... but kholek has like a +2 save. Hm something to think on i guess

 

[The Hunted]

No such thing around my place.
If I beat the snot out of my opponent(s!), they just accept the fact they lost and analyse the game with me. Then after some minutes, we found out a move or a critical break test that made the game. We then proceed to move on to our normal lives...in all peace and harmony.
As far as our lists go; they're tough but not OTT. Personally, my skinks can and will do anything, so i don't need those double EotGs.
My opponents do like to have a big smashhammer to my face, but I found ways to deal with it.

If somebody thinks a list is OTT, or somebody abuses the rules etc.. we discuss it. After all the opinions, logic and physics* are let loose on the question; we draw a conclusion. Usually it ends up fine, sometimes we have to use the old 'dice-off'.

And if my opponent DOES decide on bringing the cheddar, I'll just give my skinks an extra speach and hope they do well or die with glory!

The Hunted

 

[hellbreaker]

Well people don't really bring anything all-mighty around here. But recently I've noticed that the two guys I used to really enjoy playing with has started nit picking a lot and such. I've been playing 40k a lot now, so I can easily start over learning the rules when 8th for Fantasy comes out, (I learnt my lessons when 5th ed hit 40k, was it a pain to pretty much re-learn everything from scratch!) so it's mostly been about the True Line of Sight that's being used. In the case of me being 'Well I can see you clearly here with my tank, as my gun is above those guys infront of it.' with them being more 'Hell no! I get a cover save, stop cheating!' where I constantly have to bring up the rules for TLoS. Do I hope they keep the LoS system they have in Fantasy now, it's easier to use GW, why can't you see that?

In short: People around here won't really accept a no and calls Powergamer/Cheater as soon as something goes in the opposite player's favour.

It's a pity, we used to be quite relaxed when it got to the rules, but when the guys in my group went to this one tournament (one tournament, just one) there was no more relaxed and only 'win win win!'. I miss being able to get that one lucky 6 without having the moment instantly ruined because of my opponent immediately going nuts because 'it's not relative to probability!'.

Cheers!

 

[Chahlie]

The simple fact is that a lot of people take a lot of pride in their army. It's completely understandable, but it can lead to bitterness. Personally, I feel that you learn more from a loss then a win, so the more you loose, the easier it will become to win! Unfortunately, most people don't feel the same way.

 

[The Hunted]

. Personally, I feel that you learn more from a loss then a win, so the more you loose, the easier it will become to win! Unfortunately, most people don't feel the same way.

That, my friend, is golden.

I know I learn a lot when I lose. Mostly about keeping my own guard up, and keep looking for what I call 'panic lanes' (if anything flees-> will they run through anything else?) etc...
I also know that when I lose, I'm a bit grumpy at first. Slightly less grumpy at second. And afterwards, I dig out on the world wide web what I can do better etc... By then, I'm myself again.
That grumpy part doesn't mean I yell 'Not Possible!' or 'Cheater!' etc... every time. I'm just a bit sad, which is natural I suppose.

In a way, I like losing. It really helps your game. Then again, I don't mind winning!

It's much like your well-crafted plans allow you to flank his main unit; only for him to utterly destroy you!
You love the fact you flanked him, but then you hate yourself for flanking him

Hm, sorry for the long ramble . What I meant to say; that quote is very true.

The Hunted

 

[lazylizard]

well, i don't know about you guys but i always like to give my opponents a choice as to what they want to face. a slann or a OB on carno. most people choose the OB and end up realizing the slann would of been a better choice.

overall, i realize why people get so intimidated by what you put down on the table. its not how you put them and what you put them up against or how you play them. ITS BECAUSE YOU PAINTED THEM SO DARN WELL THAT IT IS INTIMIDATING!!!!!!

THE STEGADON DOESN'T CAUSE TERROR, THE PAINTING DOES!!!!

 

[Flint13]

@Chahlie - You sir, said it perfectly. I know its hard to see your army that you put so much time and effort into assembling/painting/whatevs get smashed apart, so I think so many people have that thought pattern of "never loose or you're less of a gamer." or something like that. I don't mind loosing. Loosing almost always gives you a grudge to come back with, like a unit in your opponents army that was a particular pain. Friendly competition (and friendly deaththreaths! ^_^) are alot of what make this game great.

@lazylizard - If your theory of awesome painting causing terror is true, then my stegadon doesn't cause terror, it causes roflcopters.

@Everyone else - Whoo! We're on page 2 and only 1 person has polled to say I whine too much. Thats pretty exciting for me.

 

[Caneghem]

I find it sad that the worst players tend to whine the most, and be the least fun to play against. Rather than seek out the reasons they lost, they blame any number of things for their loss. Their opponent's list was cheesy, their own list was too weak, their dice deserted them, their opponent's dice were too good, etc.

So with a wide assortment of excuses to choose from, they don't even bother to perform a tactical analysis after the game, and they don't improve one bit. I dislike playing against this sort of opponent because I feel like no matter who wins, they aren't gaining anything from it. I also feel cheated, because my favorite part of playing a good game of warhammer (which can be a sizable time commitment), is talking about the battle highlights afterward. Some people will just get all bitter and not want to talk about it. For me, that's the only "bad game" of warhammer I can play. Even if I get decimated by a completely one-sided list, I like to try to figure out how to do better against it.

Whether I win or lose, I always try to find my worst mistake as a player, and then think of ways to avoid it in the future.

 

[the-graven]

It's just that some things are a little OTT but whining won't help, I ie. play for fun so I don't care if that one deathstar beats my whole army to pulp, I had fun(I just like WHFB even though some players only play to win), he won he can be happy, not my problem I lost, I don't care that much.

 

[The Lybithian]

The general group at my gaming store is horribe with whining. They claim to all be the greatest Warhammer players around and when you beat them they scream "Broken! Cheesy!".
I beat them with my Carnosaur List with no stegadons, no Slann. And I get called cheesy? FTW

 

[The Hunted]

The general group at my gaming store is horribe with whining. They claim to all be the greatest Warhammer players around and when you beat them they scream "Broken! Cheesy!".
I beat them with my Carnosaur List with no stegadons, no Slann. And I get called cheesy? FTW

[sarcasm]
You actually use a Carnosaur?! That's not even a Large Target anymore! How on earth can you kill that thing then! I DEMAND you change your list to a more friendly one, no carnosaurs, slann, no more than 2 heroes, no stegadons, no salamanders, no terradons, no scor, no kroxes and no more than 10 skirmishers!
Then we'll see who's the better general...
[/sarcasm]

On a more serious note; try a fluffy list. Then win again, that way it is impossible for them to call you 'cheesy' and be serious.
Alternatively, beat the snot out of them with a WAAC/OTT army and tell them what you think.

Both options have worked for me in the past, though the latter might start a Power/cheese-army building frenzy..
It simply boils down to talking to your gaming mates. If you have a 'sharp tongue' go for the second option. If you're not that sharp, go for the first and take it slowly.

Then you can start chipping away the mountain that is called:
CHEESE/BROKEN-SHOUTERS

Good luck!

The Hunted

The Hunted

 

[Flint13]

I'm glad carno's aren't large targets any more. people act like its so incredibly scary just because you can't snipe it with a cannon as easily... and it comes with its 4-5 str seven attacks in addition to a tooled up oldblood... heh, wait, people may have a point. I love lizards ^_^. Anywho, that aside, fluffy lists are the best. Its never fun to play the 3 steg list constantly, and fluffiness changes it up to keep games interesting and characterful. Besides that, when you win with a specifically underpowered list, its all the sweeter. Do you know what kinda of high you get from killing off a chaos sorceror with a skink chief mounted on a horned one? Hint = pretty freaking sweet.

@Hunted, i'm totally going to try a 2000pt list with a skink priest and Gor-rok, a crap load of razordons and a wall of saurus blocks now... oh, and 10 blowgun skirmishers. I know just the high elf double-dragon list to try it on too!

 

[The Hunted]

Heh, you'll then get blamed for using the overpowered Saurus warriors...
And/or the all-uber overpowered MSU saurus wall of doom!
...
Pfwaha!

Anyways, fluffy lists are pretty sweet. I enjoy winning without real hammer units. It really makes you think about your moves. My hammer units are my saurus anvils with hero, or my heroes on their own. The rest; skinks, terries and other support to hold off anything.
My bret opponent hates that; He just gets merried around over and over...and over...

Even when I got massacred by him, he still had to chase all the skinks away untill he could make a decisive charge in turn 6. Before you ask, yes I did fail in that battle-> revenge is already taken.

The Hunted