• The forum software have been upgraded to the latest version.

    If you notice anything that looks off, or does not work, please let us know.

    For more information, click here.

8th Ed. Spears?

D
Saurus

Daeghrefn

New Member
Messages
74
Likes Received
0
Trophy Points
0
So if I'm reading it correctly, a unit in the second rank makes supporting attacks and is limited to one attack only. So with hw/shield we're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 attacks in a 5-wide block. With spears, this then lets the first three ranks attack (when not charging) for a total of 20?

If correct we now need three ranks to get as many attacks as we did previously in two ranks, slightly decreasing the usefulness of spears for the saurus while increasing it for nearly every other spear wielding army. Essentially, we are at a disadvantage for having basic troops with more than one attack. That just doesn't seem right to me... :(
 
Daeghrefn said:
So if I'm reading it correctly, a unit in the second rank makes supporting attacks and is limited to one attack only. So with hw/shield we're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 attacks in a 5-wide block. With spears, this then lets the first three ranks attack (when not charging) for a total of 20?

If correct we now need three ranks to get as many attacks as we did previously in two ranks, slightly decreasing the usefulness of spears for the saurus while increasing it for nearly every other spear wielding army. Essentially, we are at a disadvantage for having basic troops with more than one attack. That just doesn't seem right to me... :(
Click to expand...


Yes, it is annoying, but we will deal with it I suppose.
 
It's slightly better, but only if they'd have been killing enough models to kill into your second rank. However, you're going to get all of your attacks anyway, provided they didn't kill into your fighting ranks.

Big units of saurus is where it's at now. Which is great, cause they look really cool. I just wish the shields attached on like they do on the studio models...
 
Indeed. I'm going to have to change out a lot of spears for hand weapons, definitely.

What size blocks does it look like are going to be good? Previously I only ran them in groups of 20.
 
Daeghrefn said:
Indeed. I'm going to have to change out a lot of spears for hand weapons, definitely.

What size blocks does it look like are going to be good? Previously I only ran them in groups of 20.
Click to expand...

With HW+SH I would say minimum ranks of 3(spears 4 ranks) since we are pretty much always swinging last unless they have great weapons. Groups of 20 should still work out great.
 
You would be surprised at how important extra ranks are in 8th ed... With 20, you only need to lose one (and you WILL) to lose a rank bonus and go below the number of ranks most cheaper enemy units will have. This means even if we kill loads of them, they will get steadfast.

I am thinking units of 25 minimum, as expensive as it is. GW seem to be pushing for one big unit of infantry rather than the old 2 units of 20 or so.
 
I tried calculating against Empire blocks (halberdsmen, spearmen) since that's going to be my main opponent. In all cases of a 6x4 block of saurus vs a 10x5 block of Empire guys, the lance came in on top. Of course, that's expected, since they are more expensive. But still, with the same AS, you only lose the parry save (so, basically will get 15% less death). You do get 33% more St4 attacks, though.

Against another block of saurus (a 6x4 block of lance vs a 6x4 block of HW&S scenario). The HW&S would do about 3 wounds but the lance block would do 3.33. Not a very significative difference, but still slightly better.

So the way I figure it, any blocks of more that 3 ranks would benefit from lances. Blocks of 3 ranks or less would get "kills" on the third rank before they can hit so would not benefit from lances. Is that right?

Phil
 
strewart said:
You would be surprised at how important extra ranks are in 8th ed... With 20, you only need to lose one (and you WILL) to lose a rank bonus and go below the number of ranks most cheaper enemy units will have. This means even if we kill loads of them, they will get steadfast.

I am thinking units of 25 minimum, as expensive as it is. GW seem to be pushing for one big unit of infantry rather than the old 2 units of 20 or so.
Click to expand...

Well there is another reason to consider a unit of 20, if you roll the Watchtower battle then you can put a unit no bigger then 20 in the tower. And 20 saurus in the tower will be hard to get out. The scenarios are something to consider for lists now.
 
Daeghrefn said:
Indeed. I'm going to have to change out a lot of spears for hand weapons, definitely.

What size blocks does it look like are going to be good? Previously I only ran them in groups of 20.
Click to expand...


At 2500 I've been running two blocks of 17 spears with full command (6x3) each with a Scar Vet (one with scimitar, the other with the +2 attack sword from the BRB), they've bounced just about everything that's been thrown at them.
 
Perhaps I'm wrong but it is my understanding that spears allow you to "fight in two ranks" which means you get full attacks in the 2nd rank (if not charging) and a 3rd rank of supporting. If you charge you get full attacks in the first rank and then 1 in the second for supporting.

As I understand it and calculate it, at 5x4 with no champ you get full 20 attacks+5 in the 3rd rank for supporting if you take the charge, and you get 15 if you charge (10 front rank and 5 second).

I could be reading it wrong but this is also how my gaming group reads it.
 
moseefus said:
Perhaps I'm wrong but it is my understanding that spears allow you to "fight in two ranks" which means you get full attacks in the 2nd rank (if not charging) and a 3rd rank of supporting. If you charge you get full attacks in the first rank and then 1 in the second for supporting.

As I understand it and calculate it, at 5x4 with no champ you get full 20 attacks+5 in the 3rd rank for supporting if you take the charge, and you get 15 if you charge (10 front rank and 5 second).

I could be reading it wrong but this is also how my gaming group reads it.
Click to expand...

I've heard the same as well. Can anybody check this? I'd do t myself but I'm still waiting for the BRB to be delivered.
 
Cheers, I should have looked a little harder for previous discussions.
 
moseefus said:
Perhaps I'm wrong but it is my understanding that spears allow you to "fight in two ranks" which means you get full attacks in the 2nd rank (if not charging) and a 3rd rank of supporting. If you charge you get full attacks in the first rank and then 1 in the second for supporting.

As I understand it and calculate it, at 5x4 with no champ you get full 20 attacks+5 in the 3rd rank for supporting if you take the charge, and you get 15 if you charge (10 front rank and 5 second).

I could be reading it wrong but this is also how my gaming group reads it.
Click to expand...

You are reading it wrong. The rules for spears say that they grant an extra rank of supporting attacks. Supporting attacks say that you only get one attack unless you re monstrous infantry which is capped at 3.
 
There is no where in the rule book that it states spears grant an extra rank of supporting attacks.

In fact on page 91 it simply says "...because braced spearmen can fight in an extra rank"

It would seem that you get to fight in a second rank at full attacks and then the third rank gets to make supporting attacks.

At least that is how my gaming group reads it.
 
moseefus said:
There is no where in the rule book that it states spears grant an extra rank of supporting attacks.

In fact on page 91 it simply says "...because braced spearmen can fight in an extra rank"

It would seem that you get to fight in a second rank at full attacks and then the third rank gets to make supporting attacks.

At least that is how my gaming group reads it.
Click to expand...

Page 69 tells you want the special rule "fight in extra rank" means.
 
I run units of 24 Saurus and I always run spears. I find that the extra hitting power really helps - a lot more than the 6+ Ward Save for having HW+S does. Supported by a Lore of Life Slann, my Saurus blocks aren't going anywhere.
 
I quite like the parry save HW/SH confers. Gives me that extra staying power, and possibility to dodge the odd great weapon hit.
In 7th I had spears as a backbone to fall back on, a sort of speed bump if you may, and used HW/SH saurus as detachments. Theoretically this worked, practically due to my lack of tactical trail of thought it didn't.
In 8th I use HW/SH all the time, I have better things to do with those few points.

Cheers!
 
I'm thinking a lot of it will depend on what upgrades you plan to give to your Saurus. If I am running shadow or metal magic, I would probably run some spears to use the potential of the big offensive buff spells. I think for less specialized use, I would stick with HW+SH.
 
Actually, with most lores you'll get to augment the resilience of your saurus (+1 to +4 toughness depending on the spell) or reduce the efficiency of your opponent (-1 to hit or -1 st) anyways. So if you have a Slann, might as well invest to dish out more St4 hits. Just as long as you have a 5x4 or 6x4 unit to start with, you won't lose attacks until a few rounds. Plus lore of Life can even grow back a few saurus if needed!

Phil
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top