9th Age Spawnings, the hidden gem

[protector]

So the title may be a little creative and you will have to forgive me, I normally do not speak on things that I have not had extensive first hand experience with but I would like to bring this topic up to my fellow saurian generals before too much play testing or bias sits in.

Most of you know me as a very staunch advocate for saurus in 8th, going so far as to quite obstinately standing for the fact that saurus are by far the best core choice we have and are the best choice to win competitive games with. That said I think 9th age has only increased their potency since almost everyone thought they needed help (Works for me lol), and we have been finally provided with some long sought spawning rules.

Now a lot of us will immediately gravitate towards the increased innate defense and extra rank attack, or possibly even the increased initiative. But I would like to discuss just how devastating and possibly OP the last spawning could be.

Consider if you will all the other units that have access to vanguard, most of them have one very important thing in common, they do not do well in hard combat fights. Mostly due to a lack of armor or hard hitting attacks, if not those reasons then because they are costly for each model with the rule. We break that entire idea by allowing our saurus combat block (One of the most effective infantry in the game) the ability to vanguard, removing almost the whole downside of 4" movement. Because that means the following:

1) We can now effectively block in high speed units on turn 1 if we go first
2) We can tarpit entire flanks before the enemy has a chance to move outside our battle lines
3) With multiple units having the same spawning we can effectively flank an enemy before they get to move

I would like to say that I believe this spawning will have the greatest effect and if used correctly and not out of hand discarded it will be game winning consistently. a free 12" move before the enemy can react on a hardened 40+ combat block is truly something people have never had to face before, the only downside is that saurian characters on foot will not benefit from the rule and will have to join up later if needed.

Thoughts, ideas, complaints, cookie recipes?

 

[Trociu]

You forgot that we had chance to try it out before - thanks to Tetto'eko. Personally I used this for Saurus only once, and as I remember, it was as great as you told.

Ability to tarpit enemy in such way is great. It also makes deployment harder, cause you need to position such unit really good to make good use of that. Hah, I forgot how good it was, thanks for reminder!

 

[Mr Phat]

(One of the most effective infantry in the game)

.....lets not take up this debate again, as Saurus in 9th in no way is the same as Saurus in 8th.
The discussion died with 8th, as too much have changed internally and externally.
I think its too early to call them anything, but my initial thought is that they are way better than they used to be.
Mainly because of shields new effect.

I agree with your idea on the Vanguard, and honestly: I don't think it will last.
It can be ridiculously good, and as soon as people start playing against it,
they will either complain to the committee, or find a hard counter for it.

Heres one:

If I met that tactic with my VC, I would just chaff it with something cheap.

"Oh, so theres a 300+ pts unit coming down my flank?
Yea lets make that a point-sink.
2 units of 5 Dire wolves which is 80 pts total, and they will never see combat."

after the Vanguard, they are still M4.
Pre game: Both units vanguard, where one may block the other.
Turn 1 SA - They move up
Turn 1 VC - Wolves move in the way, with redirection angle.
Turn 2 SA - Saurus charge. Obliterate the wolves. Reforms
Turn 2 VC - New unit of wolves move in the way, also a redirection angle.
Turn 3 SA - Saurus charge. Obliterates the wolves. Reforms.
Turn 4 VC - Do I have bats available, or not? maybe I decide to invest a third unit of wolves..depends on the Saurus position.

Point is: I will just feed a big block of saurus small units and eat the rest of the army.
if two small units of saurus (lets say 2x20) on each flank...I would just send my hard hitters to kill them before the rest of your army arrives.

Unless you decide to go over 600pts in core, you wont have too many skinks either, so removing those wolves before they stand in the way will be a
problem.
Unless you decide to dedicate your entire core to try getting past 10-15 wolves, and maybe a unit of Great Bats (totals to 120-160 pts) just for sh1z n gigglez,
The unit will be a liability rather than a gamewinner.
IF you do, your entire other army will stand hopelessly outnumbered, as I will still have plenty of chaff and hitters.

It is of course all hypothetical.

 

[Mr Phat]

Wood elves would hate this though!
Which is reason enough for me to go for it!

This needs a big unit though, else you will just get run down by wild riders..

 

[Pinktaco]

I actually have a list with:

Vanguard saurus warriors
Triple movement banner templeguards
2 x 4 ripperdactyls
1 unit of terradon
2 x 5 camo skinks

If I get first turn my templeguards can move 12". If I combined it with my Slann as a BSB I can actually add the +1M banner for a total of 15" move.

The idea was to overall be on the face with as much as possible as fast as possible. Rippers have a tendency to weird out people.

The Slann would have fire magic to try and clear out redirectors.

I suppose if I want the rest the core to keep up it could be scouting snake swarms!

I think it could be hilarious although I have zero clue about the actual competitivness.

Oh and finally.. It's interesting how Spears on saurus are yet again the inferior choice, although this time around be can better build around them (FieR spawning + poison attacks).

 

[GCPD]

Why are shields better than spears? Is it the same old where Saurus die before using Spears, and shields are better because they stop them dying so much?

 

[Mr Phat]

Why are shields better than spears? Is it the same old where Saurus die before using Spears, and shields are better because they stop them dying so much?

Basicly yes.
Parry Save has become: "all attacks in the front are -1 to hit".

I wouldn't say "better" in every case.
Spears have Lethal Strike against Cav and MC
(Lethal Strike: a 6 to wound = Armour Piercing (6) )

 

[borkbork]

after the Vanguard, they are still M4.
Pre game: Both units vanguard, where one may block the other.
Turn 1 SA - They move up
Turn 1 VC - Wolves move in the way, with redirection angle.
Turn 2 SA - Saurus charge. Obliterate the wolves. Reforms
Turn 2 VC - New unit of wolves move in the way, also a redirection angle.
Turn 3 SA - Saurus charge. Obliterates the wolves. Reforms.
Turn 4 VC - Do I have bats available, or not? maybe I decide to invest a third unit of wolves..depends on the Saurus position.

Wouldn't the wolves just eat a bunch of javelins in turn 1 or a magic missile? If your game plan revolves around vanguarding saurus? It is not that we dont have chaff ourselves to counter thoses wolves.

 

[GCPD]

Basicly yes.
Parry Save has become: "all attacks in the front are -1 to hit".

I wouldn't say "better" in every case.
Spears have Lethal Strike against Cav and MC
(Lethal Strike: a 6 to wound = Armour Piercing (6) )

Well I havent looked at the other books to see if cav and MC have changed a lot, but this is back to the same problem as 8th. -1 to hit is much more consistent against all enemies, whilst the spears inflict 1 wound for every 6 attacks, against very specific opponents - that are likely going to strike first and kill lots (if not all) models anyway, or just use their superior mobility to avoid the "natural counter."

 

[Mr Phat]

Unless you decide to go over 600pts in core, you wont have too many skinks either, so removing those wolves before they stand in the way will be a
problem.
Unless you decide to dedicate your entire core to try getting past 10-15 wolves,

@borkbork

 

[borkbork]

@borkbork

note to self: "finish reading the entire post before responding"

But still, if your plan revolves around a vanguarding deathstar....you should invest in the chaff as well. It may eat up some other things...better spent some extra points on core, than have a 300 ptn unit taken out of the game.

 

[Mr Phat]

True, yet I have a hard time seeing a saurus block succeed as a deathstar by todays standards

 

[protector]

Heres one:

If I met that tactic with my VC, I would just chaff it with something cheap.

"Oh, so theres a 300+ pts unit coming down my flank?
Yea lets make that a point-sink.
2 units of 5 Dire wolves which is 80 pts total, and they will never see combat."

Point is: I will just feed a big block of saurus small units and eat the rest of the army.
if two small units of saurus (lets say 2x20) on each flank...I would just send my hard hitters to kill them before the rest of your army arrives.

Unless you decide to go over 600pts in core, you wont have too many skinks either, so removing those wolves before they stand in the way will be a
problem.
Unless you decide to dedicate your entire core to try getting past 10-15 wolves, and maybe a unit of Great Bats (totals to 120-160 pts) just for sh1z n gigglez,
The unit will be a liability rather than a gamewinner.
IF you do, your entire other army will stand hopelessly outnumbered, as I will still have plenty of chaff and hitters.

It is of course all hypothetical.

We must play with very different people, because what you are proposing is honestly very simple to crush or ignore, and even if I played it out like you said I'm still coming out a clear winner. By turn 4-5 I have now crushed around 200 points of your units with almost no damage to my saurus, since they started out so far into the battlefield I don't need to move them after the 3rd chaff unit to be in range, all I have done is move the rest of my force into position around them. Like you said your grave guard can't engage without getting pounded, same with black knights since you know I have wyssans, and any monsters will just be tar-pitted until my characters charge in to finish them.

I never assume my saurus are getting into combat until the 4th turn anyways, so all you have done is give me bonus kills and kept the chaff away from units that they might hurt (Although realistically I hardly use any units that couldn't take a rear charge easily from dire wolves). If I got the 1st turn that means my saurus are now 20" into the battlefield, they literally don't have to do anything but turn around by turn 4-5 to get a charge, with a 30+ unit I can afford to show your chaff my flank or rear because you can't do much of anything to them without a dedicated hard combat unit. I would think only Vargeists would be an issue with their high attacks and ability to get behind me, that would be a very legitimate concern if you fielded them.

Other option besides just taking your chaff units would be to ignore them, or I could charge your chaff with a lone character or sallie/razordon because units of 5 dire wolves would die to any unit I fielded.

And just for credentials I know exactly how to fight VC with lizardmen because I have over 12K points of VC, they are one of my most favorite armies to use, but the end result is that saurus still wreck their face lol. This though is all being said with 8th tactics in mind, I will definitely bow out of the discussion if someone that has played 9th refutes what I am writing.

PS. I most certainly take more than 600 points of core, I've said it time and again saurus win me games, so for that size of a game I would probably have around 900 points in core or possibly more.

 

[Mr Phat]

I think you are missing my point, as well as I might be missing yours.
This debate wont move further until we see eachother play.

Are you able to do battlereports with pictures or video?

Edit: dont think I said anything about graveguard, I dont own a single one
Neither vargheists , and the black knights I own have never seen play as a combat unit.
Dire wolves arent meant to kill anything, they are only a nuisance and I have never ever charged with to o reach combat (only bouncing fleeing units).

I usually play a crypt horror list with screams, a kited mounted vamp lord and two morghast units.

(In 9th I will be putting blood knights on the table though!)

I am curious, can I perhaps see a list you play with 900+ core?

 

[Pinktaco]

Blood knights are straight up ridiculous. Can't wait for the blood busses

 

[ZeTe]

i played about with this idea with tetto'eko. first time i fielded him i got 6 of my d3 dice roll giving me 3 units to vanguard (along with 2 units of rippers) so i moved up my 20 unit of TG and 2x20 units of saurus 1 w/spears 1w/hw&s. now this worked in my favour for 2 turns max then everything went to hell. after the game was over and my opponent asked me what would i have done differently i said i would have vanguard my bastiladon & steggie instead. i can see how it would be useful (if played right) but i would need a few more games playing around with it before i could use it to my advantage