8th Ed. Slann overpriced and over powered?

[Arli]

I was on an unnamed forum earlier and noticed a discussion about the slann. The thread contained a incredible amount of whinning (that could be a hint to the site.....) about the slann's power as well as cupped hands. I thought that I would bring this up for us to discuss. So here is my view point:

The slann is perfect the way it is.........

No, I do not believe that. Here is what I do believe:

The slann in and of itself is not overpowered. The disciplines (particularly Becalming and Rumination) should really cost 75 points each (past the free one). I would even be willing to give up the free one if they all cost 50-60 points.

BSB, general, and magic items should be allowed.

Cupped hands is an item that needs to be fixed because it is broken for 45 points. I make that statement because I take that item on every list that I make (whether I use Life or not). The points cost should be raised to 60-75 points. The item should be kept in the list though (probably not good odds on that for the next book though).

These are just my thoughts and I am trying to be objective, what are your thoughts?

 

[erians]

I personally think the unrestricted Slann is crazy overpowered. First of all he has a fighter characters LD, can be BSB and general at the same time, sick base survivability (W5, T4, free 4++) and have access to every lore and is a level 4 spell caster with a free discipline. Compare that to a wood elf caster for 25 pts less than a slann or bretonnia caster for 50 pts less. Both has much worse stat line, no free ward, no free discipline and limited lore choices. You also need to take a fighter lord with almost every other army to get maxed LD (Skaven, LM and DoC being exceptions).

Aside from being very cost efficient the Slann is obviously balanced around 7th edition since its a 7th ed book. With the new magic system Rumination becomes insanely strong, especially when combined with Loremaster and a strong arcane item. Add to that the arguably best magic defence ability in the game (Cogitation), arguably the best miscast protection in the game (Soul of Stone & Cupped Hands), and the best survivability in the game (strong bunker unit, ethereal, free 4++, 2++ against ranged attacks, 2++ against magic attacks) and you have a caster who is extremely reliable and basically lacks any form of weakness (exceptions exist, but they are very few).

The problem with the Slann from a more biased perspective is that while pretty overpowered, he is essential in a competitive environment. I often feel more like I'm like Slann-men than Lizardmen as the army more or less are made or breaks by the Slann. Without him there are numerous threats that we simply don't have the tools to deal with in an all-comers environment. The downside with having all those advantages on the Slann is that there is none left for the Oldblood or any non-lord options.

 

[Clockwork]

You also need to take a fighter lord with almost every other army to get maxed LD (Skaven, LM and DoC being exceptions)..

Elves. Also, the build you mention doesn't exist, as you are counting more than 4 discipline at once. The closest that I can get is rumination, Loremaster, Ethereal, Cogitation, Obsidian Loadstone, BSB and Standard of Discipline is 555 alone, plus AT LEAST 160 points for 10 Temple Guard AND PROBABLY something closer to 259 for 14 with full command. And that's not including magic standards or extra men on the TG. For something in the region of 660+ points and closer to 800+, I would expect it to be good, too. Especially when it still comes with the weaknesses of low initiative and low weapon skill.

That forum wouldn't be... whineseer, would it?


Yeah been reading that thread. I'm inclined to agree that the Slann is undercosted, but not overpowered. There are three distinct elements to this:

1) The base Slann stats & special rules.

2) The Discipline upgrades.

3) Arcane item purchases, specifically Cupped hands.

Personally, I feel that of these three 2 and 3 have a lot of merit to it. The Disciplines are not very well balanced against each other. Some are clearly underpriced (Rumination, Loremaster and Becalming are all worth much more than 50 points), whilst some are clearly over priced (MR3 is 5 points more expensive than the BRB item equivalent, for example). Getting one of these free is not balanced correctly. Frankly, any balancing of the Slann needs to start here with a complete overhaul of how these disciplines work in terms of a) points cost, and b) effect.

This should quickly be followed by a nerf to Cupped Hands, which is the main item offender.

Once you eliminate these two, I do not feel that the base Slann is OP. Yes it is a level 4 with T4, 5 wounds, cold-blooded and LD9, with a 4+ ward and this is very good, but excluding the Disciplines or BSB upgrade it is appropriately costed. Tzeentch Sorcerers, for example, are clear equals on this basis, as they have more attacks at better WS. The BSB difficulty comes from the fact that the Standard of Discipline contributes to Inspiring Presence, and that is just poor oversight on GW's part. If this was removed I don't think you would see nearly as many complaints - given that he is automatically destroyed if he breaks from combat. Moreover, whilst he might have a figher character's Ld, our actual fighter character's are worse in this regard.

What few people also mention is that the next best spellcaster is a level 2 Skink. With Heavens, which whilst not terrible, isn't the best lore either.

 

[Arli]

Whinesneer? What is this that you speak of...

I agree with you completely, Clockwork. I think for the points cost involved, it is not over costed that much. My current build running in a huge saurus unit can come in at 1252 points. That is with a fully decked out slann, a scar-vet to help out with challenges (if needed), and 49 saurus warriors with full command. If I were running a TG unit, it would be 1138 points for 25 TG with a 3 discipline slann with cupped hands and the same scar-vet listed above. The TG also has the war banner for 25 points but would probably benefit more from armor piercing or flaming.

I run the large group of saurus because they are almost the same stat line as the TG and when the slann has the crown of command, they are basically the same as TG. I can even take spears on the saurus unit, then reform them after I charge (or before a charge against me) to take advantage of the extra spear attacks.

Anyway, back to the topic. The disciplines are no where near balanced. I do not know of the last time that I took the terror causing one, the regen one, the soul of stone (reroll miscast), or the magic resistance (MR3) one. They are not worth it or even useable in most games.

The Banner of discipline is not even that big of a boost to the LD of the slann as cold blooded is what really helps that (along with the reroll).

 

[Durandal]

To be fair with the Regen one, a 4++/4+++ isn't a bad save in 7th. And Terror/Fear was mad good in 7th (and made that Fear-causing magic banner hilariously overpriced. God we have bad magic banners).
While I think that the Slann could use a minor readjustment, I don't think anything major is required. Cupped Hands seems powerful, but when your entire faction hinges on one wizard, after a certain points level, which a very unforgiving miscast table, its effects are needed, if a little cheap.

Granted, my Slann usually sits around failing to cast spells before his entire bunker is wiped in CC.

 

[strewart]

Yep, the Slann is definitely very powerful for the points he costs. Best mage in the game, and only a little more expensive than a lot of other lvl 4's before upgrades. Really 8th ed has forced us to take him and at a reasonable power though, there is just so much emphasise on magic now. I expect he will be weakened somewhat in the next book, and points will probaby go up somewhat. In fact we might lose disciplines all together since GW has been overly simplifying most books... So enjoy it while it lasts!

 

[erians]

You also need to take a fighter lord with almost every other army to get maxed LD (Skaven, LM and DoC being exceptions)..

Elves.

Eh what? Archmage: LD 9, Prince: LD 10. Spellweaver / Treeman Ancient: LD 9, Highborn: LD 10. Supreme Sorceress: LD 9, Dreadlord: LD 10.

Also, the build you mention doesn't exist, as you are counting more than 4 discipline at once. The closest that I can get is rumination, Loremaster, Ethereal, Cogitation, Obsidian Loadstone, BSB and Standard of Discipline is 555 alone, plus AT LEAST 160 points for 10 Temple Guard AND PROBABLY something closer to 259 for 14 with full command. And that's not including magic standards or extra men on the TG. For something in the region of 660+ points and closer to 800+, I would expect it to be good, too. Especially when it still comes with the weaknesses of low initiative and low weapon skill.

I'm not discussing a "build", I'm merely mentioning the seemingly endless possibilities to protect and boost the spell casting capabilities of a Slann. No one would take an ethereal, MR2 Slann with DPoP, SoS and Cupped hands and place him in a unit of TGs, that would be horribly redundant.

Personally, I feel that of these three 2 and 3 have a lot of merit to it. The Disciplines are not very well balanced against each other. Some are clearly underpriced (Rumination, Loremaster and Becalming are all worth much more than 50 points), whilst some are clearly over priced (MR3 is 5 points more expensive than the BRB item equivalent, for example). Getting one of these free is not balanced correctly. Frankly, any balancing of the Slann needs to start here with a complete overhaul of how these disciplines work in terms of a) points cost, and b) effect.

I don't think the cost is the biggest issue, the issue is that a free dice with every cast combined with Loremaster is simply too powerful while other disciplines are 99% useless (like Transcending Healing). I agree that the Disciplines needs to be costed differently which also means getting 1 free wouldn't make sense, but to be honest would you ever take Regeneration, MR3 or Terror regardless of the cost? As you mention the gap in power between the disciplines is just down right silly, even if you don't consider the cost.

Once you eliminate these two, I do not feel that the base Slann is OP. Yes it is a level 4 with T4, 5 wounds, cold-blooded and LD9, with a 4+ ward and this is very good, but excluding the Disciplines or BSB upgrade it is appropriately costed. Moreover, whilst he might have a figher character's Ld, our actual fighter character's are worse in this regard.

What few people also mention is that the next best spellcaster is a level 2 Skink. With Heavens, which whilst not terrible, isn't the best lore either.

I definitely agree that the Slann isn't overpowered if you take away or nerf the worst of the disciplines and items. As I said I sometimes feel like I play the Slann rather than lizardmen as we lack a good alternative fighter and spellcaster.

 

[Clockwork]

You also need to take a fighter lord with almost every other army to get maxed LD (Skaven, LM and DoC being exceptions)..

Elves.

Eh what? Archmage: LD 9, Prince: LD 10. Spellweaver / Treeman Ancient: LD 9, Highborn: LD 10. Supreme Sorceress: LD 9, Dreadlord: LD 10.

Anybody who has a LD 9 wizard lord can get a maxed LD through the Standard of Discipline. High and Dark Elves are great examples because they can take magic banners on core units, which means that they can combine leadership-boosting functions with bunkering.

Otherwise, I think we largely agree with each other, and some of the more sensible suggestions on the Thread That Shall Not Be Named. The Slann itself is probably slightly underpriced but not gamebreakingly slow - it is a combination of certain Disciplines and items that do this. You can argue that this is usually countered by a large point investment in an 'eggs-in-one-basket' approach, but there are many examples of competitive lists abusing the double Slann, sadly.

A spell-casting ability unique to the Slann, a slight points increase, and a range of Disciplines individually costed akin to Chaos Gifts is probably on the cards. I'll be sad if Rumination and Loremaster both go - the Slann is one of the few models able to be Loremaster, and the extra power dice really makes it - appropriately - to be feared.

EDIT: Has anyone else noticed that if you spell Lizardmen with a 'w' instead of an 'L', you get wizardmen. Mind = blown

 

[Turtleneck]

i am seeing many good points in here
and i can also follow the OP, UP thingys, but than again, slann is the strongest mage in the world, used to be and will be.
i think we will get disciplines, but all get nerved and others got boosted, going like
rumination ; after slann rolls a spell, and he fails to get the casting value, this discipline allows him to roll an extra dice (once per magic phase)
loremaster: will stay , but go up in points
Consciouness; expensive or go, it is one of the best items around now
cogitation: proly gone
mr 3: cheaper or go, since we have enouhg magic items
and so on

 

[erians]

Anybody who has a LD 9 wizard lord can get a maxed LD through the Standard of Discipline. High and Dark Elves are great examples because they can take magic banners on core units, which means that they can combine leadership-boosting functions with bunkering.

Otherwise, I think we largely agree with each other, and some of the more sensible suggestions on the Thread That Shall Not Be Named. The Slann itself is probably slightly underpriced but not gamebreakingly slow - it is a combination of certain Disciplines and items that do this. You can argue that this is usually countered by a large point investment in an 'eggs-in-one-basket' approach, but there are many examples of competitive lists abusing the double Slann, sadly.

A spell-casting ability unique to the Slann, a slight points increase, and a range of Disciplines individually costed akin to Chaos Gifts is probably on the cards. I'll be sad if Rumination and Loremaster both go - the Slann is one of the few models able to be Loremaster, and the extra power dice really makes it - appropriately - to be feared.

EDIT: Has anyone else noticed that if you spell Lizardmen with a 'w' instead of an 'L', you get wizardmen. Mind = blown

Difference between LM and elves in regards to LD is that Slann can carry the banner and give everyone LD 10 while elves only has it on 1 unit. Their noble BSBs are LD 9 though, so they don't need a lord for max LD (or a hero for that matter as most of their elite inf can take magic banners).

Yeah, we seems to agree on most points, I think most people who can stay unbiased would agree that cupped hands, rumination and cogitation is somewhat over the top. The chaos gift / vampiric power style would be interesting replacement to the current discipline system. If the last army books are any indication they will probably dumb it down instead, maybe going back to the 6th edition version where you couldn't hand pick certain abilities but instead upgraded the Slann to different generations. Hopefully I'm wrong, but who knows.

 

[strewart]

Once you eliminate these two, I do not feel that the base Slann is OP. Yes it is a level 4 with T4, 5 wounds, cold-blooded and LD9, with a 4+ ward and this is very good, but excluding the Disciplines or BSB upgrade it is appropriately costed.

I missed this before... Really? I know it can be dangerous to compare units from one book to another, however... A base Slann is only 15 points more expensive than a level 4 HE archmage. For those 15 points he gets +1 toughness, +2 wounds (already looking great value), a 4+ ward save and a free discipline! The ward and the discipline alone are worth close to 100 points. A Slann really is a bargain, and I can definitely see why other armies think it is undercosted and overpowered.

 

[Smexygor]

If your army will have an uphill fight without one person, by design, then he better be costed well. He's a lynchpin. Everything is is ok or solid, but he makes them a competitive army. I can see adjusting costs for balance, but we don't win everything with the stuff we have, so I don't feel they need to be taken from us. I'd miss you Cupped Hands!

 

[erians]

I missed this before... Really? I know it can be dangerous to compare units from one book to another, however... A base Slann is only 15 points more expensive than a level 4 HE archmage. For those 15 points he gets +1 toughness, +2 wounds (already looking great value), a 4+ ward save and a free discipline! The ward and the discipline alone are worth close to 100 points. A Slann really is a bargain, and I can definitely see why other armies think it is undercosted and overpowered.

Well as you mentioned its dangerous to strictly compare units between different books, as they are a part of a whole, but if you do you forgot to mention some of the archmages advantages. The HE mage has free +1 to dispel (which as a magic items costs 40 pts, around the same as 4+ save), purposefully under costed magic items (hard to value, but probably not worth more than 10-20 pts), +2 In which means far better protection against pits / suns, and good mount options to make him much more manoeuvrable.

That being said its kind of like comparing to apples with oranges. The orange is better though...

 

[Natural 20]

Its funny me and my friends were just talking about this sort of thing the other day!


Slann is deffinetly powerful but i find it funny how many people cry OP, compared to a few other armies our list of OP things is short Slann ha ha ha! Theres way worse things then the big boss frog IMO

 

[Clockwork]

Once you eliminate these two, I do not feel that the base Slann is OP. Yes it is a level 4 with T4, 5 wounds, cold-blooded and LD9, with a 4+ ward and this is very good, but excluding the Disciplines or BSB upgrade it is appropriately costed.

I missed this before... Really? I know it can be dangerous to compare units from one book to another, however... A base Slann is only 15 points more expensive than a level 4 HE archmage. For those 15 points he gets +1 toughness, +2 wounds (already looking great value), a 4+ ward save and a free discipline! The ward and the discipline alone are worth close to 100 points. A Slann really is a bargain, and I can definitely see why other armies think it is undercosted and overpowered.

Well, I'm excluding the free Discipline too.

 

[bobhope99]

The brettonian mage mentioned early on is: slightly cheaper, also comes with a ward, is mounted, can hide in the second rank of ANY combat unit in the army, grants MR2 to that unit, has access to a second dispell scroll... the two really have a lot in common; but nobody ever cries about her being over powered. Another thing I constantly hear crying about is the general/lvl4/bsb combined nonsense, you want to spread you leadership bubble around.. to bad, general is not even a benefit, it is a requirement, we pay the same points for bsb as any other army (from lords points no less). All that amounts to we have a rediculous target painted on an infantry model with no armor save, bad ini, and no combat power giving a minimum of 500pts if skaven slaves do manage to get into combat with him. Most other armies will have a 4++ on two characters and most likely a 1+ or 2+ on at least one of them. The cupped hands is another case of people crying foul over nothing, it is certainly no more abusive than the puppet, the hell heart, the ring of hotek or the book of hoeth just to name a few comparable items. Rumination is nearly duplicated by the night goblin shaman (with some drawbacks) for around HALF the cost, and still nobody is crying cheese(they can even get loremaster). Lizardmen currently have four (chamo, sallies, slann, cold-blooded) really good things in the book and we need them for army identity and for competitiveness. Finally if you need proof that lizardmen are not that broken just look at thier uncomped tourny results, we make a showing for sure, even when some of them, but we are not often the most reoccurring army in the top ten. /rant

 

[Kharn The Betrayer]

I can count on my fingers the amount of times I've used a slann because my lizardmen collection has only recently gotten to the 2000-2500 point range( so far I like warhammer fantasy compared to 40k better), but if you roll badly on your magic phase or phase some magic items/ wizards that seriously debuff the slann, you will usually be slaughtered, I have rolled almost all my magic phases between 1-4 dice ( yes one dice, I was playing high elves) and with out the critical augments to my line the LM just seen to melt vs elite armies such as ogres, WoC, etc. , also the slann better be pretty darn good if he costs nearly a quarter of my points allowance. And as many of you said there is really no good substitute for him ( I'm still kind of a newb so correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[erians]

The brettonian mage mentioned early on is: slightly cheaper, also comes with a ward, is mounted, can hide in the second rank of ANY combat unit in the army, grants MR2 to that unit, has access to a second dispell scroll... the two really have a lot in common; but nobody ever cries about her being over powered. Another thing I constantly hear crying about is the general/lvl4/bsb combined nonsense, you want to spread you leadership bubble around.. to bad, general is not even a benefit, it is a requirement, we pay the same points for bsb as any other army (from lords points no less). All that amounts to we have a rediculous target painted on an infantry model with no armor save, bad ini, and no combat power giving a minimum of 500pts if skaven slaves do manage to get into combat with him. Most other armies will have a 4++ on two characters and most likely a 1+ or 2+ on at least one of them. The cupped hands is another case of people crying foul over nothing, it is certainly no more abusive than the puppet, the hell heart, the ring of hotek or the book of hoeth just to name a few comparable items. Rumination is nearly duplicated by the night goblin shaman (with some drawbacks) for around HALF the cost, and still nobody is crying cheese(they can even get loremaster). Lizardmen currently have four (chamo, sallies, slann, cold-blooded) really good things in the book and we need them for army identity and for competitiveness. Finally if you need proof that lizardmen are not that broken just look at thier uncomped tourny results, we make a showing for sure, even when some of them, but we are not often the most reoccurring army in the top ten. /rant

How can night goblin great shams get loremaster? Can't find it anywhere.

 

[Durandal]

Isn't Rumination the bonus die? I think taking an Arachnarok gives them that?
I know that HE Dragon Mages get it (the bonus die), though they are capped at level 2, and kind of suck right now due to eating up one's entire hero allotment for a level 2 on a scrub dragon.

 

[Daeghrefn]

I am very, extremely surprised to see people here arguing that any part of the Slann is OTT. Roll poorly on a couple magic phases and you have a 450+ point paperweight. He is the one answer we have for SO many tricks; if something happens to it we're done.
The following are from my personal experience locally where Ogres are a big deal and we typically play 2500.

Cupped Hands - If a Slann in his TG unit miscasts it can easily wind up costing you the game. Careful positioning of the enemy caster can solve this easily - we need LOS. The enemy wizard does not need LOS for augments/hexes - so the only real detriment for them to completely avoid this affect is that they aren't blasting the Slann's unit with magic missiles or direct damage. Target something else, and just wait until we (almost inevitably) have to use this item to save the game.

Slann Disciplines - A couple of these are really good, sure. I bet you'd see more variety if half the options weren't literally worthless in 8e. IMHO 50 pts is about right for the good ones.

Becalming Cogitation specifically - In the current environment (at least where I am) this is pretty much mandatory. Not because of how good it is, but because it is literally the only answer to a Death ogre packing the Greedy Fist. If he can't cause irresistible force then I have at least a chance of countering the gimmick. Otherwise he nerfs our ancient space frog into oblivion and we might as well start packing up.
Being forced to take one specific upgrade because you're screwed without it against some opponents is a crappy situation to be in.
Not to mention that with pre-measurement you can simply position the enemy caster so he is within 24" of the Slann's unit, but not 24" of the Slann himself, and still do some pretty wicked things. This is another example of the opponent needing to have two brain cells to rub together to completely avoid the effect of our "OP" abilities.


The Slann is supposed to be the ultimate Warhammer mage. If anyone attempts to have their caster go head to head with the space frog it will generally end very poorly for them, and that is exactly how it should be.