8th Ed. slann in the 2nd rank in saurus warrior unit

[Skinquisitor]

Hey guys!

I would like to hide my slann in a saurus bunker. If I take a 5 model wide block, the command group could prevent him from standing in the first rank, if im right: I put the command group to the middle 3 spots, this way the slann doesnt have any space in the front rank. Maybe i can skip one guy from the command group, put one to the 2nd spot from the left, one to second spot to the right, no space again. Am I right, or there is a specific rule of the positioning of the command group I missed?
Anyway, Im adding a scar-vet to the firts rank, this makes 4/5 spot taken, 100% sure the slann is in the 2nd rank. If the champion is slain, the rules clearly states that a normal guy takes his place from the last rank, so the slann does not slip to the front

note: add a crown of command and a razor standard/skavenpelt to the slann, with the scar-vet,a hand of glory and a bastiladon next to the unit, theyll become pretty usefull

Thx for the answers!

 

[Xuil]

I doubt you'll find a single player who will let you play it like that. If it is possible for all of the characters + command group to fit in the front row, you must place them there. I'd find a page, but... that's just a given. Why do you think the Slann has a special rule to place him in the second rank of TG if he can just be cheated there?

That being said, I have often wondered whether placing a single saurus character in a 5-wide block with full command can push him back. It's no longer the case that all eligible models can fit, so who DOES get put in the front? There being no precedent, it could be argued that you decide who 'misses out'.

 

[Skinquisitor]

I doubt you'll find a single player who will let you play it like that. If it is possible for all of the characters + command group to fit in the front row, you must place them there. I'd find a page, but... that's just a given. Why do you think the Slann has a special rule to place him in the second rank of TG if he can just be cheated there?

That being said, I have often wondered whether placing a single saurus character in a 5-wide block with full command can push him back. It's no longer the case that all eligible models can fit, so who DOES get put in the front? There being no precedent, it could be argued that you decide who 'misses out'.

I dont find any rules any rules against my version. You can say im raping the rules, but I dont see any rules saying I cant do that.
- page 97, characters place in the unit: "When charactesr join a unit,they are placed in the front rank. Rank-and-file models - exept for the command group that must remain in the front rank- are moved to the back to make room for the characters. If there is no room in the front rank, some characters will have to go to the second rank."

This makes 2 avaiable candidant (page 98, different sized characters: this rule clearly stats if the char has same size footprint as 2 or more rnf models, those must be replaced, this case 4) in the first rank to go back to make room for the slann. But if the command is in the center of the first rank, removing 1-1 rnf model from the sides wont make room for him. Is there any rules saying i cant place the command group there?

If I have a scar-vet to join the unit first - there is no rule wich character gets in first - leaves only 1 rnf model available to moved back, wich isnt enough clearly. Why not then?

 

[Mr Phat]

ok, heres how it goes:

5 Wide = 5 spaces.

Command Group takes 3
leaving = 2 spaces available.
Slann takes = 2 spaces

2 spaces means = there IS (or CAN be made) room for the slann.


The

"Musician - Saurus - Champion - Saurus - StandardBearer"

solution doesn't work, there is still 2 open character spaces that you MUST utilize, and not doing so is categorized as a "worst play" = abusing loopholes.
If you have the opportunity to rearrange your frontrank to fit characters, you must do so.



THIS however is fully legal:

5 Wide = 5 spaces.

Command Group - takes 3
Scarvet - takes 1

you have 1 open slot for characters and that is NOT enough for Slann. Then you "aren't able" to utilize the free spaces
in a way that could get him to front, and THEN its legal to have him in the 2nd rank.
Sure you could put the scar vet back instead so the slann could move up, but there is no rule on how to prioritize characters in this matter.

Go for this one, as its the only of the two that doesn't make your opponent look weird at you, pack his things and walk off.

 

[GreenMachine]

^ This. The command group doesn't have to be in the dead-center of the rank, everyone just sets it up that way because it's aesthetically pleasing. Adding a saurus character or a cowboy into the unit would allow you to move the slann to the second rank.

 

[teufelhund]

I always thought it was funny that people put their commands in the middle. In reality they should be on the right. Old habits die hard I guess... I still set them up that way.

 

[Mr Phat]

only thing that matters is the champions placement. The 2 other guys are just there for show really.

 

[NexS1]

I'd be of the thought that even with 4 spaces utilised (taking a saurus character) the slann would have to be in the front, displacing the saurus character (who can make way through the command group in combat).
I'd have to put 2 saurus characters in there to feel like i wasn't doing the wrong thing.



also, saurus suck, so maybe we all need 2 scar vets in there.

 

[heuningby]

I always thought it was funny that people put their commands in the middle. In reality they should be on the right. Old habits die hard I guess... I still set them up that way.

Why do you say the command group should be on the right? Is it a BRB rule that states this? What page?

If you mean purely for fluff reasons (as done in history for instance) then I would disagree and say they should be on the left side. In historical warfare soldiers with more experience and rank always deployed to the left because the more inexperienced soldiers kept shuffling left to hide behind their shields, leaving a gap between them and the more experienced guys who trusted the cohort/phalanx. If the more experienced soldiers where on the left then the cohort/phalanx would be kept in place. Thus I like to place my command way on the left.

 

[borkbork]

I always thought it was funny that people put their commands in the middle. In reality they should be on the right. Old habits die hard I guess... I still set them up that way.

Why do you say the command group should be on the right? Is it a BRB rule that states this? What page?

If you mean purely for fluff reasons (as done in history for instance) then I would disagree and say they should be on the left side. In historical warfare soldiers with more experience and rank always deployed to the left because the more inexperienced soldiers kept shuffling left to hide behind their shields, leaving a gap between them and the more experienced guys who trusted the cohort/phalanx. If the more experienced soldiers where on the left then the cohort/phalanx would be kept in place. Thus I like to place my command way on the left.

Although i understand your logic, as far as i know it was the other way around. Thee experienced ones were indeed going on the right, which was the position of honor. And the guy on the very right needed to be the best soldier as he had the least cover.

^ This. The command group doesn't have to be in the dead-center of the rank, everyone just sets it up that way because it's aesthetically pleasing.

It may also be a left over from older editions where (if i remember correctly) you were supposed to set them up in the middle.

 

[heuningby]

I always thought it was funny that people put their commands in the middle. In reality they should be on the right. Old habits die hard I guess... I still set them up that way.

Why do you say the command group should be on the right? Is it a BRB rule that states this? What page?

If you mean purely for fluff reasons (as done in history for instance) then I would disagree and say they should be on the left side. In historical warfare soldiers with more experience and rank always deployed to the left because the more inexperienced soldiers kept shuffling left to hide behind their shields, leaving a gap between them and the more experienced guys who trusted the cohort/phalanx. If the more experienced soldiers where on the left then the cohort/phalanx would be kept in place. Thus I like to place my command way on the left.

Although i understand your logic, as far as i know it was the other way around. Thee experienced ones were indeed going on the right, which was the position of honor. And the guy on the very right needed to be the best soldier as he had the least cover.

After some research, I stand corrected. You are right. The logic was correct but the soldiers shuffled right to get behind their neighbours' shield.

 

[twistedmagpie]

I think you'll find that the reason their in the middle is that once you take wounds down to the last rank, the rules state that you take models off from each side until you only have the command group and characters present. This makes it easiest to work out when you're stuck in combat as both command groups will generally be in front of each other.

The other thing to bear in mind is that if you use a Scar Vet, as soon as you lose your champion to a challenge or banner from a flee (I know this never happens to us but the rule still exists). Then your Slann will automatically have to come forward because there is then 2 rank and file models in the front row. (It doesn't make sense that if your champion dies someone from the back will come forward - they will all move forward to fill in the gaps. You only physically take someone from the back because it would be stupid to move every single model up one in your unit)

 

[dms505]

I kind of like the idea of two SVs in the front and a Beast lore Slann behind.

 

[Skinquisitor]

Im not sure the slann has to move forward when the champion dies: at the champion rules,there is a clear statement, thatt when he dies, a normal model takes his place. Yet again, wich rule is stronger...

 

[twistedmagpie]

Army book rules outway BRB rules

 

[Skinquisitor]

Army book rules outway BRB rules

both are in the brb

 

[hdctambien]

Im not sure the slann has to move forward when the champion dies: at the champion rules,there is a clear statement, thatt when he dies, a normal model takes his place. Yet again, wich rule is stronger...

A normal model steps into his place, but does not become a champion. Otherwise, you would always be able to accept a challenge with a champion as long as there was at least 1 model in the unit (or 3 models, assuming the Standard and Musician couldn't become a champion)