7th Ed. SKINK COHORTS

[lazylizard]

why do they call them cohorts anyways?? i always wondered that. but anyways. do you guys prefer the cohorts instead of skirmishers?? and why? i know you guys say redirecting but how do you do that? do you mean that no one wants to fight the skinks so they turn another way and fight something else? or do you guys put them out for bait and then run when they come charging? don't know why i would use cohorts over skirmishers because i love the skirmishers (multi-purpose use).

 

[Bibamus]

no, just no. and don't ad kroxigors to the unit either.

 

[n810]

–noun
1.a group or company: She has a cohort of admirers.
2.a companion or associate.
3.one of the ten divisions in an ancient Roman legion, numbering from 300 to 600 soldiers.
4.any group of soldiers or warriors.
5.an accomplice; abettor: He got off with probation, but his cohorts got ten years apiece.
6.a group of persons sharing a particular statistical or demographic characteristic: the cohort of all children born in 1980.
7.Biology. an individual in a population of the same species.


Probaly definition 3 or 4...


Cohorts are out cheapest unit...
and make good screens for your more expensive units,
also they can pack some punch with some kroxigors while staying core.

 

[lazylizard]

i know there is great debate on whether people should use skink cohorts but if you do, i believe it would be best to add kroxigors to at least make them so what of a combat unit right? so what kind of damage can a unit of 11 skinks and 1 krox do. is it good to do 16 skinks and 2 krox? and i don't even want to talk about 3 krox unit because that's just too expensive for my taste.

or is it better to do trial and error?

 

[strewart]

–noun
1.a group or company: She has a cohort of admirers.
2.a companion or associate.
3.one of the ten divisions in an ancient Roman legion, numbering from 300 to 600 soldiers.
4.any group of soldiers or warriors.
5.an accomplice; abettor: He got off with probation, but his cohorts got ten years apiece.
6.a group of persons sharing a particular statistical or demographic characteristic: the cohort of all children born in 1980.
7.Biology. an individual in a population of the same species.
8. Any unit of skinks that fights in ranks rather than skirmishing as they usually do in the jungle

Fixed!


The problem with kroxigors in your skink units is remember it is combat res not kills which wins the game. 2 krox, wow you get what 2-3 kills? In return, your opponent is facing a line of squishy t2 models with little to no armour and easily beats you in kills. Chances are they will beat you in ranks and number as well, and you are facing an uphill battle.

I do think there is a strong case to use them as a small unit of flankers though, especially with their impressive M6!

 

[lazylizard]

okay. so then if i was to use them it would be good to use them only as flankers because in that way they negate rank bonus and the unit would help in size and kroxiogors do cause fear. so i guess i'll try them out with just 11 skink/1 krox unit and see how they perform.

and yes. cohort has been explained. thanks for the detailed definition. but do you think you could find the origin of where the word came from??

 

[strewart]

I'm assuming, given definition no. 3 from n810, that it originated in Ancient Rome thus it is of Latin origin.

 

[Barotok]

One thing I would recommend not using cohorts for is a flanking/remove ranks unit unless you're planning on hitting a huge unit that will have a hard time killing your skinks. In short, skinks usually get squished and give up more resolution than they net you. They're great harrassers, redirectors and most of all, just plain old cheap 'throw away' units that you can use to drag an enemy unit out of position.

Throw them out there as bait, see what comes running, let them die/flee and hammer the enemy unit for their stupidity at chasing/killing skinks. If the enemy chooses not to take the bait, make sure they're march blocked for the rest of the game and fill them with poison darts or javelins as you see fit.

 

[strewart]

One thing I would recommend not using cohorts for is a flanking/remove ranks unit unless you're planning on hitting a huge unit that will have a hard time killing your skinks. In short, skinks usually get squished and give up more resolution than they net you. They're great harrassers, redirectors and most of all, just plain old cheap 'throw away' units that you can use to drag an enemy unit out of position.

Hmm I used to think that too... Have you actually tried and seen them smashed, or is that just from theory? Because really, they are adding +1 flank, +1 outnumber (most likely) and +3 ranks since they negate the opponents and your unit at the front still has ranks. That means 5 skinks need to die before they lose more overall than they gain. The vast majority of infantry blocks are no deeper than 4 (5x4) so there will only be a maximum of 4 attacks against them. Plus of course the skinks go first since they got the charge, and between them at the krox should kill at least 2 being very conservative. They are adding 6-7 combat res, and even to the front very few units are going to kill that much. Swordmasters and maybe chosen khorne warriors excepted.

 

[Sebulba]

Yeah, I have to agree with Strewart. Everyone always acts like the whole unit will be wiped out if they charge something in the flank... Against certain units they might but just don't charge those. I mean really, how many skinks are going to be killed running into the flank of something that isn't uber-killy (Black Guard, warrior death star... etc)?
Flank charges are key to keep your saurus from getting bogged down in combat. The more support units to do that with the better in a lizardmen army.

 

[lazylizard]

i was thinking that if you use the skrox unit to mainly help support the saurus block then you should be in good shape, against another core unit or even some elite units, the saurus block should hold long enough for the skrox unit to get into the flank. and yeah, most units only have 4 ranks total so that should be 4 people fighting back against the skrox unit and the krox should be able to take out at least 2 which leaves 2 fighting back and that's if they even do any damage at all. so long as you win CR by 1 and you outnumber them, remember kroxigors cause fear, so then that means snake eyes to stick around. and if you keep it so that the skrox unit sticks with a block of saurus you could, in theory, run that all over the board.

but of course there's always the thought that what if someone charges my skrox unit head on or in the flank, and so i guess that's where you HAVE to use support units for the support unit. which in reality is rethorical, a support unit needing support . so i guess that's where salamanders and razordons come into play.

 

[Bibamus]

40 cohorts naked cost as much as 15 saurus with spears, standard and musician. you decide wich unit is more usefull in terms of killing power, survivability, tactical purpose.

 

[The Hunted]

Isn't the cohort because they were called 'skink cohort' in the Red Crest army? From the Storm of Chaos campaign?
It also helps that when you talk about skinks, you can devide them into 2: skink skirmishers and skink cohort. Or in short: skirmishers, and cohorts. Easier for regular talk.

The use:
Redirector, surprise charge, and don't get mad: war machine hunt.
Redirecting with cohorts is just so much easier than with skirmishers. Our skirmishing friends have to be set up quite precise, and is fiddly when they're charged.
With a cohort, just plonk it infront; turn it around a bit; And you're set! And they're the cheapest redirector we've got. And they do it quite well.
The Surprise charge: see above. My fellow board-members handled that part quite well. Don't forget that a flank charge on a unit of cavalry is often worth it, for holding them up. make sure your general/BSB (preferably both) is in range. YOu can hold up a unit of cavalry for 1 combat round with pretty good certainty. 2 is also quite likely, but after that; be prepared that you're skinks will die.
Fast cavalry is also a juicy target (if they are stupid enough to show their flank!).

Last but not least: War Machine hunt.
No, they aren't ideal at all for this job. Yes, it does surprise the opponent. Instead of annoying your opponents units, you just march straight past them; straight at the target war machine. If the crew also holds a mage; great!
This doesn't work on: Reapers/Repeater bolt throwers (they can just mow the skinks away) and the Organ gun.
BUT, if you present more than 1 target; they cannot shoot them all and they will get charged. For instance, your 10 skink cohort rushed up, your terradons are in position And your chameleon skinks broke cover to make the charge. Game on!

Don't forget the javelins! They will do nothing if you expect them to make a kill, but they will suddenly kill a random blood knight for their troubles! (or something like that)
You can fire all ranks of javelins on a large target (read: Giant, HPA, Greater daemon)

In summary:
Yes, I do find them usefull. Even if it's just for practical reasons (easier to redirect with them, than their skirmishing counterparts).
They also have a surprise effect, as your opponent expects your skirmishers to do most of the dirty work.
They are very cheap.
They look pretty cool on the battlefield.
They make your opponent think.
They make your opponent happy. <-- Everybody loves smashing skinks!

The Hunted

Skrox are a totally different matter, which I will comment on later.

 

[Barotok]

It's a combination of experience and theory that made me make the post that I did previously. Good points have been made about charging the wrong things in the flank with skinks. My theory tells me not to give up combat resolution, but my experience has been bad because I myself and charging the wrong things. Hence my opinion is skewed. I think I might give these guys another shot someday for that specific purpose. They theoretically, could be great support for unranked units that are charging the unit in the front, or already locked in combat (think Cavarly).

 

[strewart]

40 cohorts naked cost as much as 15 saurus with spears, standard and musician. you decide wich unit is more usefull in terms of killing power, survivability, tactical purpose.

Of course, the 15 saurus will win hands down.

But what about for even less points, 3 units of 12 skinks vs the saurus? Or 4 units of 10? The skinks now have speed, survivability (there are 3 targets instead of just one), definitely tactical prowess. The 3 skink units will run rings around the saurus baiting from the front and hurling javelins from the flank, with that tactic they could destroy the saurus without losing a skink. Or if they got impatient, it would be dead easy to charge them from 3 sides at once as well as knocking ff a rank bonus with the javelins while moving.

Its not how many of them you could get for a saurus unit they would be replacing, it is how you use them.

 

[Kurlin]

They are also a decent unit to give a lone Slann some protection and Look out Sir. And he can leave them and let them redirect etc.. the flankers/scouts that come after the Slann.

 

[Bibamus]

i wasn't talking about a skinks vs. saurus scenario. i was talking about skins vs. something and saurus vs. the same thing. it is true that cohorts have their advantages but from my point of view saurus are just better in allmost any scenario. even redirecting is hard to do with them as long as your oponenet knows whats he's doing, and as long as he's not frenzied or has hatred it will be nearly impossible to drag him out of position with them when saurus can usually just charge/get charged and kill that same oponent.
maybe its just me, but i'd rather use those points for skirmishers or terradons.

 

[strewart]

i wasn't talking about a skinks vs. saurus scenario. i was talking about skins vs. something and saurus vs. the same thing. it is true that cohorts have their advantages but from my point of view saurus are just better in allmost any scenario. even redirecting is hard to do with them as long as your oponenet knows whats he's doing, and as long as he's not frenzied or has hatred it will be nearly impossible to drag him out of position with them when saurus can usually just charge/get charged and kill that same oponent.
maybe its just me, but i'd rather use those points for skirmishers or terradons.

So lets do a little roleplay, Bibamus. And I will just say, this is all in good humour, there is no right or wrong way to play the game, I am merely arguing because you seem very set in your opinion and it is very interesting to see why. I am more in the middle, though most cases I will not take skink cohorts either just because they don't suit my playstyle.

Anyway, on with the scenario. You are facing my LM as a savvy player who knows all about redirecting charges and what to do about them. I move a unit of skink cohorts up 7" from one of your units and at a bit of an angle, with another unit positioned to flank you if you charge the skinks. I let rip with javelins. What do you do? If you don't charge, I happily sit there with my skinks letting the javelins fly into you. If you back off, I move forward too and continue peppering you with javelins. If you charge, you work right into the redirecting plan. Turn to face my flanker? Either move to compensate, or if you aren't heavily armoured chaos warriors, put those skinks into your flank and the flanker into your front.

 

[Bibamus]

5 javelins/turn isn't really something to worry about and probably charging them will result in a break for the skinks and i either pursue or test to hold depending where the flanker is positioned. if you try to flank me in any case you need 4 units instead of 2 depending what i charge. or just 3 assuming the other unit won't likely break after the 1st turn of combat.
even so, there are more aspects of a battle than just those 3 units. with a little magic or skinks of my own i can decimate the cohort or the other unit so that it is no longer a threat, either by shooting/magic untill it loses its US 5 to be able to deny ranks or by causing a panic test on the Ld 6 skinks.
i might also charge one unit and put a terradon unit between mine and your current flanker. if i decide to leave the cohort in the flank i can safely count on a 3 strong unit of terradons to hold its ground against 5 cohort attacks.
ofcourse many more factors come into play like wher your general is, what the other unit is, how big the cohort is, what other units are on the table and what the current turn is. i'd gladly take some javelin shots in turn 5-6 where it woun't really matter even if i lose half a saurus unit.
i agree that there are certain situations where the chorot are very usefull, but i find them to be rare and just as razordons, they are not worth their point cost. i won't try them out too soon probably, but i'd like to play against them once. unfortunately i'm the only LM player in my group so playtesting them will have to wait.

 

[erians]

Anyway, on with the scenario. You are facing my LM as a savvy player who knows all about redirecting charges and what to do about them. I move a unit of skink cohorts up 7" from one of your units and at a bit of an angle, with another unit positioned to flank you if you charge the skinks. I let rip with javelins. What do you do? If you don't charge, I happily sit there with my skinks letting the javelins fly into you. If you back off, I move forward too and continue peppering you with javelins. If you charge, you work right into the redirecting plan. Turn to face my flanker? Either move to compensate, or if you aren't heavily armoured chaos warriors, put those skinks into your flank and the flanker into your front.

A skink skirmishing unit can divert in a similar manner and are less likley to get destroyed by shooting, the difference between skrimishers and cohorts is that the Cohorts can redirect (angle and hold, to force an overrun or persue into a bad position) while skirmishers can divert (place themselves so their center is angled in line with the enemy units center then flee as a charge raection, angle and flee). The redirections is excellent against units with Hate or Frenzy and there are tons of those units, but against an opponent that is not forced to persue he can just charge then restrain persuit, which will normally result in many dead skinks and no flank charge. You can angle the unit in a way so that even charging and holding will present their flank, but skirmishers would easily produce the same result with an angle and flee manouver. Against Hate and Frenzy the Cohorts are far superior, which is enought reason to take 1 unit.

Imo you can't really compare the two, as they have completly different roles. The cohorts are a mobile bunker for a lone slann, decent harasser, the lizardmens ONLY redirector (as explained above), rank breaking (yeah yeah T2, but there are tons of units that won't kill 4 skinks in a single round of combat, not everything is black guards or chosen warriors of khorne), a great table quarter holder and they are cheap, while the skirmishers are good harassers and shooting support. Saying Saurus or Skink skirmishers are better than Cohorts is like saying Scar-vets are better than Razordons, they are two completly different units with different roles. If you play with cohorts like you would play with skirmishers then they won't be very effective.

i agree that there are certain situations where the chorot are very usefull, but i find them to be rare and just as razordons, they are not worth their point cost. i won't try them out too soon probably, but i'd like to play against them once. unfortunately i'm the only LM player in my group so playtesting them will have to wait.

Theory crafting can only take you so far, if you don't playtest them its impossible to create an informed opinion. There are a million things that might look bad on paper or in theory but then proves very useful on the battle field (ye olde Varghulf vs Wraith discussion was an excellent example of this). The situations where cohorts are useful might be rare in your gaming community but in a tournament environment you will come across a lot of Hate / Frenzy units where the Cohorts will do an amazing job. I also disagree about not being worth their point cost, while being somewhat more fragile than skirmishers (due to no -1 to hit) I'd thank my lucky star if someone goes after my cohorts instead of my other units and for only 50 pts you get a very useful unit that can both harass and do some damage to large targets.