AoS Shooting Phase/Melee Phase Questions

[Kurufinwe]

So 2 questions here, and they both have to deal with units with multiple missile or melee weapons.

1. In the shooting phase, a unit equipped with multiple missile weapons that is also within 3" of an enemy unit can only shoot at that enemy. The question is: If unit 'A' kills the unit 'B' that is within 3" with one of its missile weapons, can it then attack unit 'C' outside of 3" with its other missile weapons?

2. A unit, with multiple melee weapons is in combat with a horde type unit. Unit 'A' attacks with one of its melee weapons and does a bunch of wounds to unit 'B'. The opposing player pulls models from his horde unit 'B' in a way that his unit is now >1" away from the attacking unit 'A'. Can unit 'A' still attack with its other 1" melee weapons?

 

[Audvin]

In regards to question 2, no models are to be removed until the end of the attack sequence as far as I know. So you will get to use all your attacks before the opponent can remove any models.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Q1. If Unit "A" kills unit "B" and has unused missle attacks I would say they can target another unit.

Q2. As @Audvin has stated models can't be removed unless they have a special rule allowing them too.

 

[Canas]

In regards to question 2, no models are to be removed until the end of the attack sequence as far as I know. So you will get to use all your attacks before the opponent can remove any models.

Doesn't the attack sequence go seperate for each weapon though?

 

[Aginor]

Q1
Like in melee you have to call all your attacks before you make attacks. At that point you cannot choose a target other than the one within 3" if there is one, so I would say no, you cannot shoot the close target to death and then use your other attack on something else.


Q2 is basically answered I guess.

@Canas I don't think so. I am pretty sure I read somewhere that you have to plan all your attacks with all weapons before rolling any dice.
I have to look it up though.

 

[Canas]

Q1
Like in melee you have to call all your attacks before you make attacks. At that point you cannot choose a target other than the one within 3" if there is one, so I would say no, you cannot shoot the close target to death and then use your other attack on something else.


Q2 is basically answered I guess.

@Canas I don't think so. I am pretty sure I read somewhere that you have to plan all your attacks with all weapons before rolling any dice.
I have to look it up though.

Thought the required planning was just all attacks with a given weapon, but each weapon seperatly. I am at least fairly certain each weapon had to do all of its attacks before moving on to the next one.

 

[Aginor]

I'd like to copy and paste the rules paragraph but the damn app doesn't let me copy it...

Rules page 5 upper left corner and page 6 upper left corner.
On the latter it says you have to pick the targets for all weapons before any attacks are made.




So what I could imagine is that when shooting you could be in the following situation:

Your unit: Bastiladon
Enemy units:
A: almost dead unit of Skeleton Warriors, 1 Skeleton left, in melee with your Bastiladon
B: a unit of Black Knights, 12" away from your Bastiladon

Shooting Phase:
- declare that you use the Javelins to shoot the Skeleton, and the Searing Beam to shoot the Black Knights. Note that the latter is not a valid targeting.

If the Javelins kill the skelly I can shoot the Black Knights afterwards as I declared them as the target and now it is valid.
If the Javelins don't kill the Skeleton, the Searing Beam attack is completely lost and cannot be used against the Skeleton.


The above is a generous interpretation of the rules though.
If the rules require the target to be valid at the time you have to pick it, then you cannot shoot the Black Knights at all, even if you kill the Skeleton, so you might just as well target the Skeleton with both weapons.

I am not sure which one it is.

 

[Canas]

I'd like to copy and paste the rules paragraph but the damn app doesn't let me copy it...

Rules page 5 upper left corner and page 6 upper left corner.
On the latter it says you have to pick the targets for all weapons before any attacks are made.




So what I could imagine is that when shooting you could be in the following situation:

Your unit: Bastiladon
Enemy units:
A: almost dead unit of Skeleton Warriors, 1 Skeleton left, in melee with your Bastiladon
B: a unit of Black Knights, 12" away from your Bastiladon

Shooting Phase:
- declare that you use the Javelins to shoot the Skeleton, and the Searing Beam to shoot the Black Knights. Note that the latter is not a valid targeting.

If the Javelins kill the skelly I can shoot the Black Knights afterwards as I declared them as the target and now it is valid.
If the Javelins don't kill the Skeleton, the Searing Beam attack is completely lost and cannot be used against the Skeleton.


The above is a generous interpretation of the rules though.
If the rules require the target to be valid at the time you have to pick it, then you cannot shoot the Black Knights at all, even if you kill the Skeleton, so you might just as well target the Skeleton with both weapons.

I am not sure which one it is.

that's dissapointing to say the least… Nor is it that sensible.. I get that they want to limit your ability to spread out your attacks as efficiently as possible and avoid overkill. But per weapon seems fair imho. This just seems way to advantageous for the defender.

 

[Aginor]

I think it is based on the idea that all that happens simultaneously, although you roll it separately.
Other rules (such as the one to remove killed models) reflect that as well.
And seen from that perspective it is kinda understandable. The Basti crew members throw their Javelins and the Skink at the Solar Engine fires it at the same time, so both are distracted by the close enemies.

 

[Canas]

An argument can also be made they're done one by one in short succesion, either by a trained and organised crew, or by an experienced single fighter.
The skink manning the solar engine is perfectly capable of waiting the half a second it takes for the javalins to be thrown. Similarly if you have 1 fighter with multiple weapons, say a saurus warrior, he'd be perfectly capable of stabbing the guy in front of him with his spear and only when he's seen if that was effective or not decide to bite him or a different target.

 

[Aginor]

An argument can also be made they're done one by one in short succesion, either by a trained and organised crew, or by an experienced single fighter.
The skink manning the solar engine is perfectly capable of waiting the half a second it takes for the javalins to be thrown. Similarly if you have 1 fighter with multiple weapons, say a saurus warrior, he'd be perfectly capable of stabbing the guy in front of him with his spear and only when he's seen if that was effective or not decide to bite him or a different target.

Yeah, sure. I just think jt looks like GW doesn't see it that way.

 

[Canas]

Yeah, sure. I just think jt looks like GW doesn't see it that way.

Houserulling ftw

Though it does make me curious how often it actually happens and if an example like you gave has even been genuinly looked at. Given how often people tend to glance over the Obvious when designing things (after all… it's Obvious, why bother going into detail? )

 

[Killer Angel]

An argument can also be made they're done one by one in short succesion, either by a trained and organised crew, or by an experienced single fighter.
The skink manning the solar engine is perfectly capable of waiting the half a second it takes for the javalins to be thrown. Similarly if you have 1 fighter with multiple weapons, say a saurus warrior, he'd be perfectly capable of stabbing the guy in front of him with his spear and only when he's seen if that was effective or not decide to bite him or a different target.

Well, it is already good that a unit can shoot in melee, and that you can shoot to units that are in melee.

If we go for the "obvious" part, i would say that you can easily shoot javelins from the back of a stegadon even to a unit that's not locked in melee with you… and at the same time, i don't think that an organ gun can shoot at the 30 bloodletters that are in melee with the 20 longbeards

 

[pendrake]

...don't think that an organ gun can shoot at the 30 bloodletters that are in melee with the 20 longbeards...

Has no one seen Braveheart ?




Of course the organ gun could shoot the bloodletters as long as no one cared if longbeards got hit also.

 

[Killer Angel]

Has no one seen Braveheart ?




Of course the organ gun could shoot the bloodletters as long as no one cared if longbeards got hit also.

Yeah, it would be nice a rule that lets you shoot in a melee you're not involved in, but at the risk to hit also your own men. But it would be too much complicated.
You can shoot, or you cannot. AoS is the former, 40k the latter.

 

[Canas]

Yeah, it would be nice a rule that lets you shoot in a melee you're not involved in, but at the risk to hit also your own men. But it would be too much complicated.
You can shoot, or you cannot. AoS is the former, 40k the latter.

The old Lord of the rings game had a rule for it, not sure if it's still there. But basicly if your own troops were in the way they counted as an obstacle, and you have a 50% chance of hitting an obstacle instead of the intended target. This was their version of the cover rule. To be honest it seems like one of the better option for how cover should work.

Well, it is already good that a unit can shoot in melee, and that you can shoot to units that are in melee.

If we go for the "obvious" part, i would say that you can easily shoot javelins from the back of a stegadon even to a unit that's not locked in melee with you… and at the same time, i don't think that an organ gun can shoot at the 30 bloodletters that are in melee with the 20 longbeards

yup, I would've much prefered if being able to fire would've been done on a case by case basis. The skinks on a bastiladon really shouldn't be bothered by melee, but a skaven jezzail shouldn't even be able to get a shot off in melee… To be honest, seems a bit of an issue with AoS in general that GW tends to pick broad general rules which then leads to problems for fringe cases, be it cuz it leaves certain cases vastly underpowered/overpowered or cuz like in this case the rule doesn't make a whole lot of logical sense beyond "we need to balance it somehow, and this is what we went for".

 

[Putzfrau]

So what I could imagine is that when shooting you could be in the following situation:

Your unit: Bastiladon
Enemy units:
A: almost dead unit of Skeleton Warriors, 1 Skeleton left, in melee with your Bastiladon
B: a unit of Black Knights, 12" away from your Bastiladon

Shooting Phase:
- declare that you use the Javelins to shoot the Skeleton, and the Searing Beam to shoot the Black Knights. Note that the latter is not a valid targeting.

If the Javelins kill the skelly I can shoot the Black Knights afterwards as I declared them as the target and now it is valid.
If the Javelins don't kill the Skeleton, the Searing Beam attack is completely lost and cannot be used against the Skeleton.

Is this the case? I would think because the Black Knights aren't a valid target, you wouldn't be able to actually target them, regardless of if you do/do not kill the skeletons.

 

[pendrake]

yup, I would've much prefered if being able to fire would've been done on a case by case basis. The skinks on a bastiladon really shouldn't be bothered by melee, but a skaven jezzail shouldn't even be able to get a shot off in melee…

Here is another fringe case example:

G. Giant
Full hit points; holding a club; also armed with sack of boulders.
C. Clanrats (24)
Engaging the Giant in melee; ankle level.
J. Six Jezzails
16” away from Giant.

How it ought to be:

The Jezzails should have clean shots to the Giant. The Giant should be able to reply by chucking a boulder at them. Meanwhile G is stomping on C and bashing them with the club. C is at no risk from the Jezzails (but mind those hobnailed Warboots).

 

[Aginor]

Is this the case? I would think because the Black Knights aren't a valid target, you wouldn't be able to actually target them, regardless of if you do/do not kill the skeletons.

That's what I wanted to illustrate.
It depends on whether it is possible to pick an invalid target hoping that it will be valid once that attack is carried out, or if it isn't possible.
Someone should ask this question on the GW social media. I'd love to know the answer.

 

[Putzfrau]

That's what I wanted to illustrate.
It depends on whether it is possible to pick an invalid target hoping that it will be valid once that attack is carried out, or if it isn't possible.
Someone should ask this question on the GW social media. I'd love to know the answer.

I know in 40k you can't do something like that, but I don't know about AoS.