AoS Seraphon nerfs

[Joshua Horchler]

So I think we can mostly agree that Kroak's rules and the Rippers rules are little broken. I'm guessing they bring them back to where they both were in the past in the next faq. I still think Rippers will be good, even with the old rule of 1.

I have seen that people are spamming EoTG's, just like i predicted! Their unique summoning rules are just too good. I wonder if they also nerf the EoTG and move the summoned units to the movement phase like the Slann summoning instead of the hero phase. For example the rule could state that "if you roll a 14-16 the EoTG begins channeling, then at the end of your movement phase summon ..:" That would nerf the Rippers spawning and make it perhaps a little more balanced.

What do you all think? I don't own Kroak (have a Slann i've proxied) but I don't want to go crazy building and practicing my Kroak lists becasue I think it will be nerfed or tournaments will make their own rules to nerf it. Also I have 2 EoTGs, but should I buy 2 more? Or will they also come down to Earth a little... hmmm

 

[Klap]

Having them summon at the end of the move would allow you to move the EOTG before summoning so it would make little difference to Simmons movement other than the flying units.

 

[Joshua Horchler]

To me losing 14 inches on the Rippers and 10 inches on the Skinks is a big nerf. So I wouldn't say little difference. Right now they can do both, which is crazy good.

It also wouldn't spawn a toad on the first turn.

 

[Boshea]

Getting a proper lore I think would fix Slaan based summong issues. Right now we just have a ton to do with those 3 spells each turn.

As I mentioned in another thread. Eotg should be a 24 to summon in.

 

[Putzfrau]

I think some more playtesting is obviously needed but, IMO this is what i'd do.

Bring back the rule of 1 for kroak and rippers
Make EOTG unique.
Astrolith can't stack.

Give saurus warriors a small point reduction, similar to what guard and knights got. Maybe even the carnosaurs as well.

I think seraphon just have too many ways to get around core rulebook limitations.

 

[Killer Angel]

Having them summon at the end of the move would allow you to move the EOTG before summoning so it would make little difference to Simmons movement other than the flying units.

the key factor in the EotG summoning, is that it happens during the hero phase, so the summoned unit must stay away at more than 9" from the enemy, but in its move phase can move and go to 3"... at that point, it's an easy charge.
If the EotG summons at the end of the move phase, then the summoned unit must try a charge at 9"

BIG difference.

 

[Boshea]

I think some more playtesting is obviously needed but, IMO this is what i'd do.

Bring back the rule of 1 for kroak and rippers
Make EOTG unique.
Astrolith can't stack.

Give saurus warriors a small point reduction, similar to what guard and knights got. Maybe even the carnosaurs as well.

I think seraphon just have too many ways to get around core rulebook limitations.

Just rewording Deliverance so it didn't work with portal would force you to play him closer. Taking away his ability to multicast it I think is only a real solution if we get Lore of highmagic back since being able to cast 4 spells is pretty pointless without more options.

 

[Putzfrau]

Just rewording Deliverance so it didn't work with portal would force you to play him closer. Taking away his ability to multicast it I think is only a real solution if we get Lore of highmagic back since being able to cast 4 spells is pretty pointless without more options.

With double astroliths and BWV, is range ever really an issue?

 

[Dreamer74]

My list I made for a turny on the 4th has Kroak mainly for the 4 spells, apart from that it's quite balanced and not overdone with heaps of EOTG's and other things and house rules no Ripper bonus etc.

 

[skinkyone]

I would be very dissapointed if Kroak was nerfed (ripper i can see being faq'd despite it being a glass cannon)

AoS is fully of stupidtity when it comes to unit rules Kroak is basically our main and most reliable source of mortal wounds its one unit in a battletomb that is very expensive and actually requires extra investment to be broken (bearer and vortex)

 

[Dreamer74]

And Portal for the range

 

[Canas]

I think some more playtesting is obviously needed but, IMO this is what i'd do.

Bring back the rule of 1 for kroak and rippers

Make EOTG unique.
Astrolith can't stack.

Give saurus warriors a small point reduction, similar to what guard and knights got. Maybe even the carnosaurs as well.

I think seraphon just have too many ways to get around core rulebook limitations.

The rule of 1 needs to go die in a fire… it's a terrible rule that goes against the rule of cool and breaks a lot of interesting abilities and strategies.

What would be way better imho would be for example the following:

For kroak: An easy way could be to make it so that the casting roll is unmodified. Without bonusses to casting his chances of succesfully casting celestial deliverance three times are 6% with a +1 to casting it skyrockets to ~18%. Given that kroak is basicly never fielded without an astrolith bearer this would mean that making this spell unable to benefit from modifications would make it roughly three times less effective on average. That's the exact same nerf as the rule of one would do, but it retains the actual mechanic that made it cool. Alternativly, increase the diminishing returns on the casting value (e.g. +2 each cast). Or just go all the way and overhaul magic to not just be a way of spamming D3 mortal wounds, but give it it's own save mechanic so as to actually allow for variation in the mechanics as opposed to the two we currently got (either D3 mortal wounds or roll X dice on a 6+ do a mortal wound)

For the rippers, their stats are just too good for the mechanic. Unmodified each attack has a 75% chance of triggering another. Without nerfing those numbers the mechanic isn't ever going to feel fair. If they're unwilling to lower its stats then they should consider changing the mechanic to be something like "on a succesfull hit, roll a dice on a 4+ get another attack". It'd significantly drop the amount of attacks generated while keeping the actual mechanic of potential limitless attacks.


Also the astrolith bearer stacks? Really? The hell kind of insanity is that? I mean of course Kroak is going to be hilariously OP with 2 astrolith bearers. The damn spell gets an absolutly massive range and the succesrate of casting it thrice would be like 37%.

As for the EoTG; for starters it just needs more focussed abilities. Other than that given the nature of random abilities like this and the requirement to make them immensly powerfull due to how relativly unlikely the high-end abilities are to happen some mechanic needs to be put in to Ensure you can't just stack em. Have them interact in some way. E.g. if you have 2 EoTG's and you roll the same effect twice the second time you get any effect of your choosing just not the one you already did. Or having two EoTG's allow you to modify the result by a maximum of 2

 

[Killer Angel]

The problem when you have too much powerful abilities, is that when the nerf will arrive, we will probably end with somethin not balanced, but crippled.
Kinda like no more than a single additional attack for ripper and a points cost increase at the same time.

 

[Joshua Horchler]

The problem when you have too much powerful abilities, is that when the nerf will arrive, we will probably end with somethin not balanced, but crippled.
Kinda like no more than a single additional attack for ripper and a points cost increase at the same time.

I don't think so. I think GW is doing a much better job of trying to balance things. They still want to sell models. I think if the put back the rule of 1 for Kroak and Rippers and maybe nerf the movement of the EOTG summoned units, Seraphon will still be great.

Also the rule of 1 is a good thing. If you have played 40k in the last 5 years you know that Deathstars and unstoppable combos ruin the game. Trust me.

 

[Killer Angel]

I don't think so. I think GW is doing a much better job of trying to balance things. They still want to sell models. I think if the put back the rule of 1 for Kroak and Rippers and maybe nerf the movement of the EOTG summoned units, Seraphon will still be great.

Yes, we would be still top tier.

My point is that we already saw units too much strong, that slowly ( or rapidly) become subpar, tnx to badly balanced "corrections".

When tomb kings were still around, the royal warsphinx was one of the 2 strongest General in all' Death.
Then they nerfed one of its strongest ability and gave it a huge points increase. The two things combined sent the toyalkitty into oblivion.
Another notable example is the mourngul... it was a nightmare, one of the really broker units of AoS. Nerfs, points increase, then nerfs again... we have reached the point where i admire who got the balls to play one of them.

 

[Canas]

Also the rule of 1 is a good thing. If you have played 40k in the last 5 years you know that Deathstars and unstoppable combos ruin the game. Trust me.

The fact that the rule of 1 improves the situation doesn't mean it's not a terrible solution to the Original problem and there aren't far better solutions possible.

Minor sidenote, what does the rule of 1 do to stop deathstars or unstoppable combo's in 40K? Those shouldn't generally be affected by the rule of 1.

 

[Joshua Horchler]

The fact that the rule of 1 improves the situation doesn't mean it's not a terrible solution to the Original problem and there aren't far better solutions possible.

Minor sidenote, what does the rule of 1 do to stop deathstars or unstoppable combo's in 40K? Those shouldn't generally be affected by the rule of 1.

By no means is it perfect. AoS is a super complex game, i would rather them use a rule that affects all the armies equally. A game like AoS or 40k will never be completely balanced, so I prefer when they at least make the rules universal and equal.

Rule of 1 prevents people in AoS from casting the same spell and stacking bonuses. This use to be used in 40k all the time.

 

[dranagal]

From the corebook: (p 238)
"Lastly, any extra attacks, hit rolls or
wound rolls gained by the use of an
ability cannot themselves generate
extra attacks, hit rolls or wound
rolls. For example, if a hit roll of 6
or more allows you to make 1 extra
attack, this extra attack could not
generate further attacks should you
roll another 6+."
So what's the problem with rippers ?

 

[Boshea]

From the corebook: (p 238)
"Lastly, any extra attacks, hit rolls or
wound rolls gained by the use of an
ability cannot themselves generate
extra attacks, hit rolls or wound
rolls. For example, if a hit roll of 6
or more allows you to make 1 extra
attack, this extra attack could not
generate further attacks should you
roll another 6+."
So what's the problem with rippers ?

Q: If a warscroll or set of allegiance abilities has a rule that contradicts the core rules, can I use it? For example, Lord Kroak has a rule that allows him to attempt to cast Celestial Deliverance up to three times in the hero phase, but this contradicts the core rule that you can only attempt to cast a spell once per turn.
A: Warscrolls and allegiance abilities take precedence over the core rules, allowing you to do things that would not normally be allowed. In the case of Lord Kroak, his rule means he can attempt to cast Celestial Deliverance up to three times in the same turn.

 

[pendrake]

Well done with the prediction...

...have seen that people are spamming EoTG's, just like i predicted! Their unique summoning rules are just too good. I wonder if they also nerf the EoTG and move the summoned units to the movement phase like the Slann...

The answer to this and all similar questions can be found by answering this:

How have sales of the relevant model kits (Stegadon / EotG) been doing?