8th Ed. salamander hunting pack unit

[Carnosaur Nr1]

In the 8th edition lizardmen book it doesnt say how many salamander is the maximum but in the 7th edition it was a maximum of 3. Have they changed that rule so you can have as many as you want in a unit or have I missed something?

 

[SanDiegoSurrealist]

Holy Crap Sandwiches Batman!

I think you just stumbled upon something there!

A pack of 5+ would be hideous!

edit: Just checked in Army Builder and yes, yes you can.

 

[CookieGuy]

Remember that you can only fire in 2 ranks though (In the second rank, the template would hit your own Sallies on a "2", and I'm pretty sure that that's against the rules). Now, a unit of 6 Razordons would be pretty tough though. 6d10 shots followed by 6d10 Stand and Shoot averages 17.5 S4 hits (assuming 4s and 5s), followed by 12 S5 and 18S3 attacks at I4 in combat.

I still think that Razordons (but not sallies) should have kept march and shoot to make them more viable and to help GW sell models.

I like cookies.

 

[Carnosaur Nr1]

Remember that you can only fire in 2 ranks though (In the second rank, the template would hit your own Sallies on a "2", and I'm pretty sure that that's against the rules). Now, a unit of 6 Razordons would be pretty tough though. 6d10 shots followed by 6d10 Stand and Shoot averages 17.5 S4 hits (assuming 4s and 5s), followed by 12 S5 and 18S3 attacks at I4 in combat.

I still think that Razordons (but not sallies) should have kept march and shoot to make them more viable and to help GW sell models.

I like cookies.

But if you take them 5 in a row insteed of having ranks

 

[n810]

Oh, razordons could never march and shoot, it was specificly stated in their old rules.

 

[sirkently]

I have run units of 4 or 5 since the new book came out. They are really good. Now that they can't be stomped, and actually get to stomp, they are really good against smaller infantry units. And if you spit at them before they charge you, they will likely be small.

Also work great with Tetto. Vanguard them up so you can shoot first turn.

 

[Dreadgrass]

Been playing with a unit of 5 Razors as a pseudo-anvil unit in my 1500pt games and they've been pretty good. they can whittle down their target pretty well, easily getting 2-3 rounds of shooting in (including stand-and-shoot which is at an even better rate) and they can dish out a decent amount of attacks in the following combat. They are also quite a tough unit for their role (T4, 3 wounds, 5+ save and 5+ handler save) and benefit greatly from pretty much any buff-spell you care to throw at them (Personal favourite is buffed Hand of Glory the turn before the enemy charge. A round of shooting + stand and shoot at an increased BS followed by a round of combat with buffed WS and I is just great). Im now building up to 2500pts and will be running a unit of 8.

Salamanders I feel benefit a lot from positioning, which is a lot easier with single models. With Tetto'eko's Vanguard and/or a slann with Walk Between Worlds I could see a unit of 3-4 posing a serious flanking threat however...

 

[Scalenex]

I can see benefit to fielding Razordons in large units, but I fear Salamanders would get unwieldy fielded in units greater than three. If you have points to want more Salamanders than two groups of three it's probably a grand army and thus you could take FOUR groups of Salamanders.

 

[CookieGuy]

Everything Scalenex just said.

I like cookies.

 

[pgarfunkle]

Yeah I've been wanting to try out a large unit of razor with the new book but it's quite a reasonable investment as I currently own 0 razors

 

[CookieGuy]

Does your group allow proxies?

 

[sirkently]

I can see benefit to fielding Razordons in large units, but I fear Salamanders would get unwieldy fielded in units greater than three. If you have points to want more Salamanders than two groups of three it's probably a grand army and thus you could take FOUR groups of Salamanders.

Thing is, you want a unit that can stand up in combat. Larger units are unwieldy only if you are using the tactic of the last edition where you are trying to get into a flank. Now you just walk up to the front, fire away, then say come and get me.

 

[CookieGuy]

Yup, I'm doing this next time I hate a High Magic Slann. Just because walk between worlds would make it so much better.

 

[Dreadgrass]

Thing is, you want a unit that can stand up in combat. Larger units are unwieldy only if you are using the tactic of the last edition where you are trying to get into a flank. Now you just walk up to the front, fire away, then say come and get me.

This works great with Razordons. Move in front of an enemy infantry block so your back rank is in range (normally front of unit is ~15" from target) and let fly, enemy unit is unlikely to charge due to fear of a failure and a free round of stand-and-shoot and so moves up. Move so your rear rank is within 9" and fire again at short range. Enemy charge and you stand and shoot at short range. Combine with buff-spells (Hand of Glory being a personal favourite, but enchanted blades from metal or flaming sword from fire work great too) and you can really tear up an enemy before you see combat. It's the same concept as poison upgraded skinks and both variants of Bastiladons. You don't buy the model/unit for any 1 attribute, you buy it to use every facet. In the razordons case, it's not their shooting potential, it's not their combat potential, it's not their (relatively) good defensive stats, and it's not their speed and manoeuvring flexibility. It's using all these parts in conjunction that makes them worth the choice. /end rant on only vaguely related topic.

With Sallies, Im pretty sure you won't be firing with the back ranks, so any more than 4 is paying a premium to increase only their defensive/ combat potential (which is the same as the cheaper Razordons) Unless you plan to have them act across an extremely wide frontage which may hamper their effectiveness in shooting. You also don't get to stand-and-shoot and your optimum range is probably somewhere between 6 and 12" (to have the top 4" of the template over the target's "sweet spot") though Im no expert on templates so someone with more sallie experience than me will probably correct me on that. In any case, if your to the front of your enemy, your probably only going to get 1 good barrage at optimum range before the enemy charges, with possibly an earlier turn shot at longer range to try for a few lucky hits.

Im thinking the best use for "combat-sallies" is in a unit of 2-3 on a flank to take a few shots early game and charge into the flanks of combats to add some CR and S5 attacks/stomps (plus any remaining skinks).

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Interesting topic. I've been interested in trying out a large Razordon unit. Haven't been able to decide just how big to make it. Plus there is a lot of competition in the rare choice category. With that in mind, how do the following choices stack up against each other?....

Razordons
Salamanders
Ancient Stegadons (with or without engine)


How many points would you spend on each in a 2000pts game? 3000 points game?

and why?

 

[CookieGuy]

The following are just my opinions, and I've been drinking, so there's 2 reasons for them to be invalid:

A big unit of Salamanders (4-5 in one rank) could be used to hop in front of a block of infantry and just turn it to mush, then take the charge ifyou feel confident that you can win the fight. This seems pretty effective.

A big unit of Razordons (6-8 in two ranks) could be used to completely wreck anything on a flank,, possiblly in one round of shooting or in combination with sinks. By this time combat blocks should be almost in position to engage, and you've got yourself a fantastic flanking unit all alone off to the side.

The second option appeals to me a lot more, not because it's necessarily better, but it's more my style.

I like cookies. And rum.

 

[pgarfunkle]

Yeah I could probably proxy for a game or 2 to try the unit out before deciding whether to start buying. I think a unit of 5 could be great for chewing up chaff units or even taking chunks out of main combat blocks

 

[Pinktaco]

How does the shooting work with razordons? One or two attacks? And any armour piercing?

 

[Scalenex]

I can see benefit to fielding Razordons in large units, but I fear Salamanders would get unwieldy fielded in units greater than three. If you have points to want more Salamanders than two groups of three it's probably a grand army and thus you could take FOUR groups of Salamanders.

Thing is, you want a unit that can stand up in combat. Larger units are unwieldy only if you are using the tactic of the last edition where you are trying to get into a flank. Now you just walk up to the front, fire away, then say come and get me.

If that's how you run them, you would probably be better off running with Razordons instead, so you can get a Stand and Shoot.

 

[sirkently]

I can see benefit to fielding Razordons in large units, but I fear Salamanders would get unwieldy fielded in units greater than three. If you have points to want more Salamanders than two groups of three it's probably a grand army and thus you could take FOUR groups of Salamanders.

Thing is, you want a unit that can stand up in combat. Larger units are unwieldy only if you are using the tactic of the last edition where you are trying to get into a flank. Now you just walk up to the front, fire away, then say come and get me.

If that's how you run them, you would probably be better off running with Razordons instead, so you can get a Stand and Shoot.

I find razordons just don't do enough damage. They really need a buff to work well, and I would rather use my buff magic on something else, if it gets off even.