8th Ed. Returning 2500 for review

[vapor]

Been out of the game for almost a year due to real life, I was wondering how well you guys think my old list will still hold up.

Slann
BSB, Standard of Discipline
The Focused Rumination
Becalming Cogitation
Focus of Mystery (Light)
Cupped Hands

Skink Priest
Cube of Darkness

Scar Vet
Light armor
Shield
Dragonhelm
Piranah Blade

29 Saurus
Spears, FC (Scar Vet goes here)

22 Skinks, 2 Kroxigor
FC

10 Skink Skirmishers
(Priest caddy goes here)

20 Temple Guard
FC
Blood Statuette of Spite
Sun Standard
(Slann goes here)

7 Chameleon Skinks

7 Chameleon Skinks

7 Chameleon Skinks

Ancient Stegadon

Salamander
extra crew

Salamander
extra crew


2500 on the nose.
Things to note:
After a lot of testing I found I liked the aggressiveness of Light over Life's more defensive capabilities.
The BSS is in for anti-Teclis purposes, it's also nice for picking off EOTG priests and harassing scroll caddies.
Cube of Darkness on a lvl 1 Priest is my favorite caddy. Also, Heavens is terrible.
The Sun Standard is up for debate, but the only other contenders are the Razor Standard or the War Banner.

 

[Agrem]

Looks like pretty solid list. Only thing that I would take into further consideration is those spears on saurus warriors. I know it's more of a personal matter but in my opinion that parry save is worth it and those points could be spent elsewhere.

What I came up you could drop spears, 1 chameleon from each unit and one extra handler. This would free up points for another skirmish unit. Another possibility could be dropping the sun standard or changing it. I would consider the flaming banner.

BR
Agrem

 

[Saurus_Guardian]

hey man, what i noticed.

I saw someone play a similar list and he got destroyed by ogres. He was playing life and forgot his extra power dice however.

There is a lack of units for proper defense, once something goes through that side unit of saurus, it will all go by very quickly for you.

It does seem solid enough though. just not a lot of units.

You are very light on the number of models and troops.

 

[wbarobinson]

Haha! That was me, who got destroyed by the ogres... i also forgot that salamanders cause panic every time they wound... Would have had a better chance if I had remembered my own army's rules, that is for sure.

 

[Dunya]

I agree thats it probably isn't strong enough defensively, loading up on multiple figting units adds lots of resilience and flexibility to a Lizardmen army in my experience. Be that mounted Scar-Vets, Stegadons or more units of Saurus the key thing is to have a healthy number of elements in an army to even out the battleline and not be stuck pinned down with a single unit of Saurus. They are strong, but by no means invincible.

In an army specifically centered around Light it may be a little different. In my experience Lore of Light is all about increasing the "white" damage of the army, by that I mean the damage that comes from basic attacks and not Impact hits, Thunderstomps or Salamander templates. In my world that means getting as many Saurus (and possibly Temple Guard) as you can possibly bring while still having the necesarry utility on the field. 80+ Saurus has worked well for me, the Stegadons and Salamanders don't really fit in great with a style where you should be Timewarping your blocks into the opponents grill as fast and hard as possible.

 

[vapor]

Took the army out this weekend and got in three games with a minor change (traded sun standard for a flaming banner and used to leftover points to give the Slann the Obsidian Amulet. Won them all.

It held up great.

Light: Most people are so worried about Timewarp that they let Pha's and Speed of Light go, and those are game winners for us in this lore. When Saurus, TG, and even Skrox are hitting on 3's and getting hit back on 5's (often 6's when you get both off) they wreck everything they go up against. Net + becalming can shut down mage bunkers (pass a Str test every time you want cast, even when you do pass you're losing 6's). The two magic missiles are great for picking off scouts or fast cav/redirectors (boosted Shem's can even put a hurting on Hydra's, and both are very nice against undead or demon). Even Light of Battle can come in handy for rallying fleeing units that are under 25%.

The Sallies and chamo skinks are very good at softening up units before they reach your lines. Sallies are tough enough to be able to charge into the rear of engaged units to give you the +2 CR, and even if they don't have war machines to hunt the Chameleon skinks are great for redirecting or charging broken units off the table.

The way I used the steg depended on what I was up against-- high armor units got charged, but low armor units got 2-3 volleys of 4d6+3 poison shots in the face before they got to charge me. The only time I lost him was when I went up against a WoC army that had 5 units of 18 nurgle warriors and a unit of 8 chaos trolls. Even then it came down to a bad roll of dice and the unit he was facing solo was down to 6 guys (later killed off by concentrated sally and skink fire).

The scar vet build is nasty in challenges, you only need to slide one wound in to kill off most heroes (I like hunting BSB's with him).

 

[Dunya]

Cool, congrats on the wins.

God mode Lore of Light can be seriously cool with Lizardmen. I would still prefer some more units and bodies since magic is sometimes fickle, and Light spells aren't exactly cheap to cast. Sure if you have Pha's and Speed of Light up you have nothing to worry about, but it falls apart quickly with a low magic roll or a failed spellcast.

 

[vapor]

Cool, congrats on the wins.

God mode Lore of Light can be seriously cool with Lizardmen. I would still prefer some more units and bodies since magic is sometimes fickle, and Light spells aren't exactly cheap to cast. Sure if you have Pha's and Speed of Light up you have nothing to worry about, but it falls apart quickly with a low magic roll or a failed spellcast.

Even on low rolls with rumination you can pick and choose who needs the single target versions of Pha's and SoL the most based on the situation. Pha's can be done on 1+1 consistently, and SoL on 2+1 (only really need to worry about rolling all ones either way.)

 

[Dunya]

In theory yes, but alot of things can happen during a game. You may have to dispel remains in play spells, you could face multifronted combats or you could just be on the recieving end in a critical turn since you can only augment your troops in your own magic phase etc..

All I'm saying is that while I have no doubt your list is perfectly capable of winning games and quite well put together, there are simply some elements in there that I don't think you strictly need in a Light list. Like the Ancient Steg and the Skrox for instance. You're saurus numbers and the overall strength of your fighters is sufficiently low that you could really struggle with lots of thunderstomps or impact hits for instance, and I just don't feel like Stegs or Skrox is really going to phase those kinds of lists with the Skrox being far to vulnerable and the Ancient Steg lacking sheer attacks.

 

[vapor]

In theory yes, but alot of things can happen during a game. You may have to dispel remains in play spells, you could face multifronted combats or you could just be on the recieving end in a critical turn since you can only augment your troops in your own magic phase etc..

True enough, but you can say the same thing about pretty much any lizzy list. To win consistently with lizzies with all-comers lists we depend on good magic support, either for buffs or debuffs.

All I'm saying is that while I have no doubt your list is perfectly capable of winning games and quite well put together, there are simply some elements in there that I don't think you strictly need in a Light list. Like the Ancient Steg and the Skrox for instance. You're saurus numbers and the overall strength of your fighters is sufficiently low that you could really struggle with lots of thunderstomps or impact hits for instance, and I just don't feel like Stegs or Skrox is really going to phase those kinds of lists with the Skrox being far to vulnerable and the Ancient Steg lacking sheer attacks.

I take it you haven't actually played with Skrox. I had the same thoughts looking at them on paper, especially since most of my metagame is WoC, DE, and Empire. Even before the FAQ made them immune to stomps they were solid-- but they did require a bit more thought to use than Saurus. It becomes a matter of using their speed to pick your fights with them but they are pure hell on Cav, monsters, and chariots since you can usually get the charge (people tend to forget that they're move 6 so on average you get a 13 inch charge), will have ranks to maintain steadfast, 6 str 6 attacks, immune to stomps, and cause fear. They get even better when they catch some buffs, even though they are pretty far down on my list for receiving them outside of being in the bubble for the AOE versions. They are the perfect foil to throw at anything with a low number of high strength attacks that would wreck Saurus or TG-- anything with great weapons or killing blow for example.

The Ancient steg is in there to draw fire more than anything. You would be amazed at the number of shots people will throw at it that would do a lot more damage to my infantry blocks. It also happens to combo charge extremely well with the Skrox (same movement), where they make up for each others weaknesses.

The other end of it is that nothing dangerous reaches combat with me untouched-- the Sallies and Chameleons make sure of that.

 

[n810]

Haha! That was me, who got destroyed by the ogres... i also forgot that salamanders cause panic every time they wound... Would have had a better chance if I had remembered my own army's rules, that is for sure.

actually its every casualty not wound.

 

[Dunya]

I take it you haven't actually played with Skrox. I had the same thoughts looking at them on paper, especially since most of my metagame is WoC, DE, and Empire. Even before the FAQ made them immune to stomps they were solid-- but they did require a bit more thought to use than Saurus.

I do need to try out Skrox, I just have trouble getting over their very apparant weaknesses. The vulnerability I was reffering to was mostly from regular BS based shooting, they're a pretty juicy target if your opponents realize it.

The Ancient steg is in there to draw fire more than anything. You would be amazed at the number of shots people will throw at it that would do a lot more damage to my infantry blocks. It also happens to combo charge extremely well with the Skrox (same movement), where they make up for each others weaknesses.

Well I mean the shooting part is just banking on people not knowing what they're doing, low strength shooting isn't really cost effective against a Steg and they're not THAT hard to deal with in cc if you have the right tools.

Ok, so lets say you keep the Steg and the Skrox, which you may be right in doing. I would still have a couple of issues with the army:
- You have a Skink Priest, an Ancient Stegadon and plenty of hero allowance, why not take the EotG and cut the Skirmishers?
- The spears are generally inneficient pointwise.
- I would probably build the Scar-Vet differently. Burning Blade, Dragonhelm and Potion of Strength gives you a better answer to Regen and monsters that close with your Saurus/Temple Guard.
- Most importantly I really feel like you need another hammer, if you could somehow make room for 2x24 Saurus with hws I think it would be a huge boost to the army. The first thing I'd be looking at cutting away would be the Skirmishers and the spears on the Saurus, removing a Cham in each unit wouldn't hurt you either. Should also be 15 Points to save by trading the Cube for a regular Scroll. The magic Standard on the Temple Guard could also be skipped entirely, especially if you get the Burning Blade of Chotec in the list.

 

[vapor]

I take it you haven't actually played with Skrox. I had the same thoughts looking at them on paper, especially since most of my metagame is WoC, DE, and Empire. Even before the FAQ made them immune to stomps they were solid-- but they did require a bit more thought to use than Saurus.

I do need to try out Skrox, I just have trouble getting over their very apparant weaknesses. The vulnerability I was reffering to was mostly from regular BS based shooting, they're a pretty juicy target if your opponents realize it.

With a 12 inch march and a 13 inch average charge they are usually only under fire for the first turn or two... and if they'd rather be shooting at the Skrox then more power to them. I've found that there are so many more threatening units in this list that they tend to get a turn two charge in untouched. YMMV.

The Ancient steg is in there to draw fire more than anything. You would be amazed at the number of shots people will throw at it that would do a lot more damage to my infantry blocks. It also happens to combo charge extremely well with the Skrox (same movement), where they make up for each others weaknesses.

Well I mean the shooting part is just banking on people not knowing what they're doing, low strength shooting isn't really cost effective against a Steg and they're not THAT hard to deal with in cc if you have the right tools.

Having the right tools in the right place is true of a lot of things. Even chaos warriors have issues dealing with a steg, much less a buffed version. (Fun anecdote, early in 8th I had a crazy good magic phase where I got off aoe versions of Pha's, SoL, and Timewarp... my steg chewed through a chosen bus on his own in two CC rounds and only took two wounds in return. While I doubt I'll see that again it was a thing of beauty. I think that performance alone is what put the fear of the AS into my group).

Ok, so lets say you keep the Steg and the Skrox, which you may be right in doing. I would still have a couple of issues with the army:
- You have a Skink Priest, an Ancient Stegadon and plenty of hero allowance, why not take the EotG and cut the Skirmishers?
- The spears are generally inneficient pointwise.
- I would probably build the Scar-Vet differently. Burning Blade, Dragonhelm and Potion of Strength gives you a better answer to Regen and monsters that close with your Saurus/Temple Guard.
- Most importantly I really feel like you need another hammer, if you could somehow make room for 2x24 Saurus with hws I think it would be a huge boost to the army. The first thing I'd be looking at cutting away would be the Skirmishers and the spears on the Saurus, removing a Cham in each unit wouldn't hurt you either. Should also be 15 Points to save by trading the Cube for a regular Scroll. The magic Standard on the Temple Guard could also be skipped entirely, especially if you get the Burning Blade of Chotec in the list.

In order:
-EOTG is the worst of both worlds. It's terrible in 8th. The priest is extremely vulnerable (even with a 2+ AS)-- sniping spells, challenges, and templates all kill him quite easily. Challenges are especially bad as all it takes is a dinky unit champion to deny you a thunderstomp-- not to mention there are plenty of champs that stand a good chance of killing the priest in the first place!
-I've found spears to be worth it when running Light. With SoL up (and it usually is) it's worth an extra wound or two per combat round. If I was running Life I'd go HW+S in a heartbeat.
-I've tried that build and it's really solid, but I like that I only have to slide in one wound to kill off a hero (usually a BSB) with the current one. The PB is also nice for overkill bonuses in challenges and for fighting ogres/monstrous infantry.
-I'll play around with the list some more to see what I can come up with as I think this is a really good suggestion.

 

[Dunya]

I don't understand why people have such an aversion to the EotG, Its effectively free, and sometimes even a point saver since you can skip the skirmish bunker. Put a Dawnstone on the Priest and unit champions have to be pretty rockstarish to take him out. Alright - so you're in danger of losing a round of thunderstomp I'll give you that, but the 5+ Ward and the Burning Allignment aren't to be scoffed at. I mean its not like he's 100% safe running around in a unit of skirmishers, especially when you don't have Terradons to handle light flyers, scouts and fast cav ..

But this is a good discussion, feel like I'm picking up a thing or two I might use in my own army.

 

[vapor]

I don't understand why people have such an aversion to the EotG, Its effectively free, and sometimes even a point saver since you can skip the skirmish bunker. Put a Dawnstone on the Priest and unit champions have to be pretty rockstarish to take him out. Alright - so you're in danger of losing a round of thunderstomp I'll give you that, but the 5+ Ward and the Burning Allignment aren't to be scoffed at. I mean its not like he's 100% safe running around in a unit of skirmishers, especially when you don't have Terradons to handle light flyers, scouts and fast cav ..

But this is a good discussion, feel like I'm picking up a thing or two I might use in my own army.

I've tried both and dumping him in the skirmish bunker tends to let him live longer. He's a lot less threatening than he is on the EOTG and between being harder to shoot, 10 ablative wounds, 20 poison shots (+ stand and shoot), and the ability to channel magic missiles (Light has two perfect ones to use) he's pretty much pure death on things that hunt him. I tend to tuck him behind a building or in a woods if I can, and depending on how the game is going I have his unit run around in later turns and clean up fleeing units.