7th Ed. razordons/salamanders or saurus blocks

[lazylizard]

here is my question seeing how i've notice this happen.

why would you take a unit of 3 razordons/salamanders over a block unit of saurus warriors with or without spears?

when i take salamanders i usually take 2 at most but when i take razordons i take 3 in a unit. now i'm one of those that aren't great big fans of salamanders, but when it comes to razordons (this is my must have unit if i have points available) i always take them over salamanders. of course this subject has been discussed over and over again so lets not get into that, but more along the lines of taking that rare choice.

but back to my reason for asking.

the first target for my opponent is my rare choice, the razordons. i usually get good shots at the charging unit but they die off/run so quickly that its not even funny. its like i'm looking at 225 pts run off or get overrun and i only killed like about less than 100 points. are they really worth their points?? using 225 to kill 100 pts? so i've come to this thought that maybe it better to just forget about the razordons and take another unit of 18 saurus with spears. i always bring 2 units of 18 but if i'm just throwing 225 pts away, why not add a FEW more points and put in another block of saurus warriors that the opponent would be more cautious about charging. if you think about it. 225 points gets you an artillery dice worth of shots in which case chances of miscast means no shots, and in CC you get 2 Attacks per razordon/salamander at S5 but will they still be there after the charge? because no one in their right mind will just charge any unit at these guys, they will use their special units to charge them which will take them out. Razordons/Salamanders don't have any CR so of course they will be running. while looking at the other hand, 18 saurus warriors would give you a standard, plus 2 ranks and if you get charged, you get 24 S4 attacks as long as no one dies and a LD 8 to work with.

feel free to correct me if i'm wrong but another block over these little guys sound more tempting to me right now.

don't get me wrong because i love these guys but is it really worth its cost?

 

[Caneghem]

You mentioned you already are running two units of 18 spear saurus... You are starting to form a very long and slow line of warriors if you add in a third big unit of spear saurus. Now against very novice opponents, this may very well be the best thing to do, but good opponents will be able to use terrain and outmaneuver you, and that third big block might not see combat at all. I've never liked the razordons for just the reason you described... their stand and shoot isn't even nasty enough to scare opponents out of charging them, so what is the point? Sure, they move and shoot in a nice arc around them, but when you get down to it, you really can substitute skink skirmishers and be just fine. Neither can take a charge and live, but at least skinks can FLEE.

Single salamanders are so popular not for the points they are likely to win back, but for the threat value. The fact that a salamander CAN panic and kill whole units makes them good "threat value" for their points. Plus it is a unit starting at US7, which allows it to do all the things a US5+ unit can do.

Maybe take a salamander with extra handler and then beef up other units. You'd have enough for a unit of 4 terradons leftover if you have the special slot for them.

 

[lazylizard]

i could, but i'm just not a great fan of salamanders. i've used them twice in a battle before and they have not proven their worth to me. but maybe i'll try again.

 

[JohnMavrick]

I've used Razordons (I enjoy them very much also) before in a couple of games. Once as a single model but most often in units of three. I use them as a denied flank unit at the end of my infantry line. They're fast enough to be able to gain the flank on any sneaky units and their shooting can be devastating. I've so far not had any problems with them in this capacity. I've yet to use them in another way. Perhaps your not protecting them enough? Or perhaps your using them against the wrong army? There are some armies where units just aren't worth taking...

 

[lazylizard]

Perhaps your not protecting them enough? Or perhaps your using them against the wrong army? There are some armies where units just aren't worth taking...

well i like to use them in the flank of my infantry as well, most of the time if there is a forest near by i like to move them into the forest. but most of the time yes, they protect a flank for my infantry units. most things that charge my razordons would be dragon ogres, ushabi, dark elf cold one riders, etc. but they seem to die off so easily. i don't know what i'm doing wrong but that's what happens.

 

[JohnMavrick]

If your facing down tough flankers like that I would run a unit of CoC or another of our hard hitting units. up on the other wide of the unit (away from your infantry). This will sort of 'even' the playing field on that side and give him something else to think about and have to deal with. Something else you might consider is running a unit of terradons or chameleons (be sure to have one of them named Huaroc) on that side which can move up to march block them, allowing you to shoot at them more before the inevitable charge.

 

[Walgis]

IMHO they are quite expensive and they are not worth it. i batter take more skinks or for more points terradons.

 

[Bibamus]

razordons aren't really ment to take charges from cavlary and survive, same with other elite units.

as others said, the reason the razordons suck have been discussed in other threads and you are probably right, a unit of saurus is more worth it than the razordons, the salamander on the other hand forcecs panic tests on any wound caused, has a -3 save modifier and shoots flaming attacks, combined the fact that it can flee, one of those things in a forest is a very nasty thing for any opponenet barring ogres.
combine salamanders with wall of fire or a unit of terradons behind the unit you are shooting at and you could see salamanders killing 200-400 pt units in a single shooting phase, all while still threatening your opponenet in the next shooting phase.
spells against them can be dispelled and if placed in a forst or behind comver they get that much harder to shoot at even without the -1 for being skirmishers. while it is understandable why units of multiple razordons are desirable, units of single salamanders are just deadly on the field. don't expect them to win the game but for their points cost they are excellent herassers. in my last game the salamanders dididn't manage to casue a wound the whole game, while in other games they paniced huge units, took out half of cavlary units and even managed to destroy a unit of 10 chaos warriors with some skink help.

 

[Dave G]

For the record: I'm anti-razordon and that will influence my answer to some degree.

It comes down to what you want to use each unit for in your list. They have completely different intended roles. It is like comparing steak to ice cream. Both food, but completely different kinds.

My first questions in this type of situation is: What are you looking for your Razordons to do and why do they keep getting charged by your opponents hammers?

 

[lazylizard]

i like the razordons because it is a S4 artillery dice amount of shots. including the fact that i always use potent of far on them as well which is really useful. i've killed off UNITS of chariots, infantry, calvary, etc. while with salamanders its whoever the flame template covers and that's how many hits you get and at S3 it isn't really isn't going to really wound any one who is actually tough. its easier to kill with S4 than S3. but the panic is nice but i seem to play against armies such as dwarfs, elves, tomb kings, etc. these guys all have high leadership so that panic test isn't really going to help me out all that much. but at the same time they are easy to kill elves and tomb kings and even dwarfs with a load of S4 shots compared to a limited S3 shot.

they just seem to always get charged because i guess these guys all know how much the unit costs, it is a real threat and the gaming community i play at seem to be more terrified of the razordons than salamanders. so i guess that's why they are the first ones getting charged.

 

[Bibamus]

thye get charged because they aren't that dangerous and they can't flee. on the charge they will do nothing 1/3 of the time and thats IF they get to stand and shoot.
salamanders are ignored for the same reason. they stay further away and can shoot but tend to be ignored because most player either see them as weak and thus no threat at all or becasue they are too far away.
wile a razordon has to stay within 12" to shoot at things the salamanders fire between 2-10 1/2 and 10-18 1/2, thats quite a big difference

 

[lazylizard]

okay. so i just got done with a game earlier today and i must say, i'm not using salamanders anymore. they did nothing to help and they are not that great at all. but there was one good thing about them, i brought 2 salamanders, separate units, and what i thought that was great was that this was a great throw away unit. but i like my razordons just because for me, they have shown more results than salamanders have, but at the same time, if the points can be used else where then that is what i will do.

 

[Gor-rok]

I'm a big razordon advocate, and I've encountered the same problem. The enemy has often seemed hellbent on making a beeline for the razors with whatever elite cavalry they happened to have, and I'd get one quality stand and shoot before getting wiped out. There are two main remedies I've figured out:

1) Pick your targets. If the enemy has high end flanking units that the razors won't be able to wipe out (Knights, dragon ogres, anything with high armor, etc.) they're not going to deny them the flank at all. Instead, I use skinks to redirect or saurus to hold on the flanks, and weave the razordons around until I can find some nice, soft infantry, flyers, fast cavalry, or lone characters to shoot up.

2) Don't get charged in the first place. Try to use the razor's great mobility to stay just out of their arc of sight, or place them in terrain the enemy won't want to charge into (in water or woods where they'll spend the next few turns trying to get out of even if they win combat). Also, if you get judging distances down well, you can make them have to wheel far enough for the charge that they stand a very good chance of failing, and getting shot to pieces in the process.

I know none of this is particularly profound insight, but working on the above has helped my razordons stay more of an asset than a liability. Don't give up on them too soon!