7th Ed. Razordon Roadblocks

[smiler6310]

Morning!

So following my last topic on rares to guard a flank;

http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3284

It was generally surmsied that Salamanders were the way to go. However, I'm still really keen to find a use for Razordons! I've been thinking this idea through for awhile but please bear with me as the explanation in my head may not come out on here perfectly.

I was thinking of using Razordons as mobile roadblocks. What do I mean? Well one key strength of the Razordons is their double artillery dice 'Stand and Shoot'. However, as mentioned in my other topic if you put Razors on a flank they get ignored and nobody in their right mind would charge them.

So we give them no option but to charge the Razordons! My idea is to put the Razordon as a screen for the centre of your army shielding your big Saurus/Temple Guard blocks, like so;

Sh R Sh
Sh Sh

SSSSSS
SSSSSS
SSSSSS

R = Razordon
S = Saurus Warriors
Sh = Skink Handler

As skirmishers the Razors and handlers should be able to cover your bigger blocks. Now if the enemy wants to get to your main blocks they will have two options:

A) Go around the Razor
B) Go through the Razor

If the enemy takes option A it will take longer for him to get too your lines, the slower moving Saurus may get the charge on the enemy unit and the Razordon should be able to continue to fire into the enemy as they try to wheel around it.

If the enemy takes option B then the Razordon will (hopefully) fire its 2 arty dice worth of shots into the enemy unit. When in close combat the Razor and handlers may hold the enemy up allowing us to get into better positions for a charge or at the very least inflict some more casualties before they break, dragging the now weakened enemy onto your waiting Saurus blocks - where the Spears come into effect.

This could work well if combined with skink skirmishers, as they flee dragging the enemy onto your waiting Razordon. Or combining their shots to whittle a unit down.

Its not fool proof obviously, a big drawback is a misfire which will render you with no shots at all. However, I hope maybe people can understand what I'm trying to say with this idea.

Anyway thanks for reading, hope it wasnt too much of a waste of time! Please let me know what you think or what big glaringly obvious point I've missed!

 

[The Hunted]

Interesting use of Razordons.

And not even a bad one. Unfortunately;
there are some weak points that I will try to explain:

-Cost
You essentially sacrifice a Razordon (75-80 points) to do 2x Artillery dice of hits. But;
You need to hit, you do NOT roll a missfire, you need your enemy to charge the beast.
The last one is probably the easiest...
Which, all in all; isn't all that good...

-Slots
2 Rare slots used (some would say wasted) on a 80 point sacrifice?
When you can bring the usefull Salamander instead?
That's 160 points your enemy are VERY likely to get (at the very least); since your intent is to let them get charged; and thus to be sacrificed.
Add 160 to the ' normal' VP he gets (from shooting skinks..etc..) and substract the damage done by the 'usual' Salamanders then substract damage done by Razordon = Not that good, probably.
(160 VP's-Damage by Sala's in normal game-Damage don by Razordon=....)
This is enforced by the fact that your Salamanders are not intented for sacrifice and will therefore not give up theyre (combined value) of 160 VP.

-Movement
Not a big point but still:
Your opponent could shoot all the handlers away; leaving your Razordon to sit still, shoot around or move like normal. If he decides to sit still; your own unit of Saurii behind is restricted in their movement.
And no, shots fired on a razordon are not useless. The high strenght shots will STIL target your big heavies, it's the small arms fire that threaten this use.
Also: If your razordon actually manages to hold, your unit has a harder time of getting in (and finding room). And your opponent will have an easy time picking the razordon apart in stead of your trusty saurii.


-Likelyhood
Already adressed (under Cost) but I would like to emphasize on the likelyhood of this event actually happening.

-Damage
The amount of damage done by a razordon isn't al that impressive. A unit of infantry (Undead, Daemons, Skaven, anything bar weak non-elite elves really...) can soak it up and move on. Cavalry have a good armour (+ward? +regeneration?) save.
Fast cavalry and small units of elite infantry (ELVES!) are threatened. But they won't charge anyway then. They WILL find another way to deal with the bugger, that same turn. Read: shooting+magic!

It is a very interesting tactic, and could be used to throw off your opponent. But if your opponent stays cool and looks at the battlefield; he is more likely to get an advantage himself. Or, usually, no disadvantage.
You just lost 80 VP...great!
That is why I would not use this tactic and would recommend anyone thinking of using it; to think again

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea. But IMHO it isn't usable (feasible?)for the reasons mentioned above.

The Hunted

 

[n810]

Interesting idea....


how about a larger formation something like this...


R = Razordon
S = Saurus Warriors
Sh = Skink Handler
c = Skink Cohorts
- = empty space

----------------------------
sh R sh -ccccc - sh R sh
sh------- ccccc - sh -----
----------------------------
---------SSSSSS---------
---------SSSSSS---------
---------SSSSSS---------
----------------------------

this way you can have the formation march up the field
if they try to go around you can pepper them with skink
and razordon shots, or if they decide to charge stright ahead
in the the squishy cohorts you can flee and counter charge
with the Saurus, or catch them in a cross fore of razordon fire,
if the deside the charge the razordons you stand and shoot and
then rear charge with the cohorts and flank with the saurus.

 

[The Hunted]

I'd say that this use is far better. It is more refined.
But, unfortunately (sorry guys!), this also has one glaring weakness:
Too many points tied up in 1 spot. 80+80+50+150=360. The saurii unit is 150 and is very cheap! This is more likely to hit 400 and more if you start to add some more bodies.
It's also tough with psychology, fleeing units cause havoc in this formation.
Also note that those 2 razordons take up BOTH of your rare slots (2k)

You try to convice your opponent of charging by using your razordons. They are not that intimidating to me, I'd be happy to force the screen in this situation.
I'd march my empire swordsmen up (no detachments) and face the skink cohorts any day.
Now you can shoot 5 javelins and 2 Razordons at my formation, 25 swordsmen (you could think clanrats, plague monks or heck; even zombies here) can stand that for a while.
OR, you have to move your cohort out of the way; costing another turn; and then allowing me to charge...
I am aware that if you move the cohort out of the way, you can move the razordons in front. Still; i'm not impressed.
The thing i AM scared off, is those saurus spears behind all this gismo....they CAN and WILL do damage/hold.
Cavalry has to keep an eye open, and use more support to kill off a razor/some skinks (probably razordon). But eventually will get into combat with saurii rather well (it's in combat where the problems start )
All in all; I am not advocating for this tactic. I am not against it, but i lay out some weak points of it.
I'd love to use it. But I won't. For me, there are waay to many if's and but's and maybe's...
I'd rather have him charge my saurii straight up; or redirect them with the cohorts striaght away...
Simple, and (IMHO) more effective.
Nice thoughts though I will have to give you credit for that

The Hunted

 

[Bibamus]

also, depending on terrain and other factors somebody mught jsut charge teh razordons and be within half their charge range so no stand and shoot is going to happen.
also, why fear a razordon? on a stand and shoot it fires 2 art dice worth of shots wich may missfire, then it has to roll to hit at -2 [its not likely somebody will be within short range and more than 1/2 charge distance away] and then to wound. he takes his saves, razordon dies.
i don't know what the avarage roll on 2 art dice is but i'd probably charge a razrodon unit with a 25 strong clan rat unit any day.

 

[smiler6310]

Thankyou for the constructive critisim 'Hunted' and also thankyou for your idea 'n810'.

I'd really love this idea to work but as everyone has pointed out it just seems too problamatic. However, I knocked up a rough 2500pt army that I think could work:

You have:

Carnosaur or Slann
Priest on Engine
2x18 Saurus Warriors
2x10 Skink Skirmishers
2x6 COC
2x3 Terradons
2x2 Razordons + handler

Roughly deployed like so:

E = EothG
COC = Cold One Cav
T = Terradons
R = Razordon
SW = Saurus Warriors
Sh = Skink Handler
SS = Skink Skirmishers
- = empty space

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
COC----Sh-R-Sh---------SS------SS-----------Sh-R-Sh----COC-----
--T-------------------SW-------E-------SW----------------------T-------

Now with 2 bigger units of Razors your using more points but getting more shots and bigger roadblocks. The idea is too try and filter the enemy where we want them by forcing him to choose:

A) Charge the weak Skinks in the centre
B) Charge the Razordons, take the S+S and subsequent close combat
C) Go around the Razordons into the flank.


With 'A' the skirmishers in the middle fire of their shots and provide a tempting weaker centre as n810 suggested and flee if charged, setting up a charge from the Saurus and/or Engine. The razors shoot the enemy up too and including as they charge the skinks

With 'B' the Razors double shoot the enemy if the enemy charges into them. If/when the Razors break and flee the saurus should get a nice flank charge into the enemy unit. If the Razors hold them the COC come charging (stupidity dependent) into the enemy flank.

With 'C' the Razors continue to pepper the enemy as they go around them. The COC will charge probably with the Terradons having dropped rocks beforehand. Id the enemy isn't broken by the COC the Razors should be able to help with a flank charge.

The Engine and Priest should hopefully be able to protect the Razors from shooting and magic to an extent, minimising the casulaties taken.

 

[The Hunted]

Nice.
This actually looks like it has promise. In regard to carny or slann: Slann.
Every tactic which does not involve running forward+combat should use a slann
Especially this one, as this is quite 'sofisticated'. And you might actually hold with your razordons, giving up no VP.

Some problems you might face:
Weighted flank. This one busts through one flank and turns around with an evil grin...
I can see you having trouble vs a weighted flank, then again: you can place some skirmishers on that flank to help annoy. Razors+terradons+skinks, with SCOR in reserve...could hold long enough.

Any dragon will enjoy this. He will get out of charge range/LOS of your SCOR and do what a dragon does best...again, slann helps here for Ld bubble. And, occasionaly, beast cowers.

Shooting+magic
Magic can be dispelled (again, slann! Becalming Cogitation..need i say more?) to great effect. But shooting is pretty deadly to this setup. You do not have much screens for your flanks. And although the EotG is the primary target, Terradons and SCOR are very cost-effective to shoot at. Your opponent will know this.

Some things that work in your advantage/are good
The razordons. Most opponents regard them as useless (most of the time, they are right ) and will not put many attention/shots in them.

The setup is easy, it's the actual tactical use that's a lot harder. Deployment is a very important phase of the game, and this one is quite easy to set up. Even with terrain annoying the crap out of you .

Some things to think about:
BSB/Ld/EotG bubble.
All your expensive yet quite fragile troops (SCOR, terries and to some extent; razordons) are likely to be OUTSIDE of the BSB/Ld/EotG bubble...That's rough!
We all love our slann for his Ld. We also love him because of the big banner he waves. We love the big Steg with the small skink on top for it's wards...
Now, you remain out of the bubble of love...We all know how that ends

Anyway, I hope you put this thought to good use. And I hope even more that you actually use that tactic and have fun with it. If you do, please inform us how you did!

The Hunted

 

[Arsenal]

? on a stand and shoot it fires 2 art dice worth of shots wich may missfire, then it has to roll to hit at -2 [its not likely somebody will be within short range and more than 1/2 charge distance away] and then to wound. he takes his saves, razordon dies..

The is no penalty for range, stand and shoot, or move and shoot on a Razordon. You always hit on a 4+ regardless of your action, though you do get the standard penalties for shooting those in cover, skirmishers, etc.