AoS Question about the Kroxigor their "jaws like a Steel Trap" ability

[Nielspeterdejong]

Hello everyone,

So I had a question about the Kroxigor their "jaws like a Steel Trap" ability, in combination with the Starpriest's Serpent staff ability which lets you double the damage a bite like attack would have normally dealt on a wound roll of 6 or higher.

Now the Kroxigor's ability allows him to roll a dice with his opponent, and if he rolls higher will deal the difference between the rolls as mortal wounds damage instead of the original 1 damage his bite attack would have done.

So my question is: Would the mortal wound damage, provided you rolled better then your opponent, count as the normal damage? I had a opponent say to me that that was not the case, and you would deal double the normal damage, however when you succeeded in the roll you would deal the mortal wounds instead of the 1 point of damage and if you failed you would deal no damage at all.

is it safe and fair to say that with the Starpriest's Serpent staff the Kroxigor's "Jaws like a Steel Trap" ability, which only triggers on a wound roll of 6+ with 1 attack per Kroxigor and for which you still have to beat your opponent in a dice roll mini game, would deal double the mortal wounds damage you would have otherwise dealt?

 

[Aginor]

Your opponent's assessment is the most common interpretation I think. You actually do no damage if you lose the dice game, that's pretty clear.
...which AFAIK makes the Kroxigor the only unit having a >50% chance of getting punished for a good wound roll...

As far as I remember the Serpent Staff doesn't double the mortal wounds, but I cannot remember an official clarification on this. The train of thought leading to this interpretation is that Serpent Staff doubles the attack value of the weapon, and the mortal wounds are not weapon damage but damage caused by an ability.

 

[Koriialstraz]

Good question. IMO, it would deal the double mortal wounds, so for this time I can't agrre with @Aginor.

For the Serpent Staff : "a wound roll of 6 or more causes twice the normal amount of Damage".
If, for this case, we think that the normal amount of Damage is the number of mortal wounds, you'll have to double it.

 

[Aginor]

@Koriialstraz
Good points actually.
I think the primary question here is: do buffs like the Serpent Staff affect only the weapon row on the warscroll (thats what most people assume) or do they affect special properties of weapons as well?

I haven't found a conclusive answer to that yet.

But if we take new abilities and their wordings into account I'd probably say you are right, here's why:
Abilities increasing weapon damage often don't talk about damage in their descriptions, they talk about "damage characteristic", which clearly refers to that last value in the weapons table.
Serpent Staff however does not say that, which would point to it being applicable.

From a gameplay point if view I absolutely agree that it should. That effect isn't very likely to happen, Kroxigor are pretty expensive for what they can do (bad hit rolls especially is what prevents them from being great), and even with that buff I don't see them ruling the tables anytime soon.

So yeah why not.

 

[Seraphage]

@Koriialstraz
Good points actually.
I think the primary question here is: do buffs like the Serpent Staff affect only the weapon row on the warscroll (thats what most people assume) or do they affect special properties of weapons as well?

I haven't found a conclusive answer to that yet.

But if we take new abilities and their wordings into account I'd probably say you are right, here's why:
Abilities increasing weapon damage often don't talk about damage in their descriptions, they talk about "damage characteristic", which clearly refers to that last value in the weapons table.
Serpent Staff however does not say that, which would point to it being applicable.

From a gameplay point if view I absolutely agree that it should. That effect isn't very likely to happen, Kroxigor are pretty expensive for what they can do (bad hit rolls especially is what prevents them from being great), and even with that buff I don't see them ruling the tables anytime soon.

So yeah why not.

This is a pretty "bad ability" but has the advantage of giving you some threat against multiple wounded monsters besides hordes. Because that's where all the rolling worths it imo

 

[Nielspeterdejong]

Good question. IMO, it would deal the double mortal wounds, so for this time I can't agrre with @Aginor.

For the Serpent Staff : "a wound roll of 6 or more causes twice the normal amount of Damage".
If, for this case, we think that the normal amount of Damage is the number of mortal wounds, you'll have to double it.

Those were my thoughts as well. Basically the ability increases the damage, and the Serpent's Staff only states that it increases the damage it normally deals. And in that case, on a wound roll of 6+, you have a chance that the damage either becomes 0 or it becomes a number between 1 and 5 and as mortal wounds. The Serpent's Staff description never states that it only increases normal damage.

I will just use this description then, as it only states damage not damage characterisic, and on a wound roll of 6+ you normally do either 0 or 1-5 mortal wounds

 

[KingCheops]

You actually do no damage if you lose the dice game, that's pretty clear.
...which AFAIK makes the Kroxigor the only unit having a >50% chance of getting punished for a good wound roll...

<Tangent>I'm not sure it's that bad. It probably depends on the target's armor. If you get a regular wound the opponent still gets an armor save. You have -1 rend which means your wound goes through 66% of the time against 4+ armor. However against 2+ that's only 33% of the time and against 3+ it's only 50% of the time.

If my math is correct the expected value of a 6+ wound is 0.97 which is higher than any expected value for a "regular" wound other than a target with 5+ or 6+/- armor. Your odds of getting 0 wounds is 58.33% but you also have a 27.78% chance of doing 2 or more wounds which you can never do with a single 1 damage attack. Since these are mortal wounds the enemy rarely gets saves against them. The damage is incredibly spiky especially in a single game since there will be no where near enough dice rolls for averages to kick in. However, when it connects it has potential do a lot of damage.

The result of this is that the Jaw attacks are actually better to use against hard targets with lower armor values. This is very interesting because Kroxigors seem like anti-Horde specialists to me. Although since wounds carry over connecting for a 5/10 MW jaw attack is pretty devastating even to hordes. I guess your Kroxi swings the hapless sod back and forth using the opponent's legs like a flail to knock down other members of the unit.

 

[Aginor]

<Tangent>I'm not sure it's that bad. It probably depends on the target's armor. If you get a regular wound the opponent still gets an armor save. You have -1 rend which means your wound goes through 66% of the time against 4+ armor. However against 2+ that's only 33% of the time and against 3+ it's only 50% of the time.

If my math is correct the expected value of a 6+ wound is 0.97 which is higher than any expected value for a "regular" wound other than a target with 5+ or 6+/- armor. Your odds of getting 0 wounds is 58.33% but you also have a 27.78% chance of doing 2 or more wounds which you can never do with a single 1 damage attack. Since these are mortal wounds the enemy rarely gets saves against them. The damage is incredibly spiky especially in a single game since there will be no where near enough dice rolls for averages to kick in. However, when it connects it has potential do a lot of damage.

The result of this is that the Jaw attacks are actually better to use against hard targets with lower armor values. This is very interesting because Kroxigors seem like anti-Horde specialists to me. Although since wounds carry over connecting for a 5/10 MW jaw attack is pretty devastating even to hordes. I guess your Kroxi swings the hapless sod back and forth using the opponent's legs like a flail to knock down other members of the unit.

Good one. Math speaks for itself indeed.