8th Ed. piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann question

[Skinquisitor]

Hello!

First of all, sorry if this question was sorted out already, but i didnt find answer.
As for the current wording of the piranha blade, it allows impact hits to do d3 wounds when you equip your oldblood with these items. If this is true or until this doesnt get faq-ed, then I think this must also work:
Buy the piranha blade for the slann. I looked up 7th book faq-s, for bane head, if you remember this item. You nominated a character, all wounds caused by the bearer were doubled, and if you did a wound with cupped hands, it did not one but two wounds if you used it on the nominated character. So, derived from this, if you equip your slann with the blade and the egg, the wounds will be multiwounds. And this multiwound would apply to spells aswell.
Can anyone confirm this, or clear up where i was mistaken?

 

[Ondjage]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

I dont think there is a clear cut answer in the rulebooks for this question, you can indeed argue both ways.


But don't do it!

 

[hdctambien]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

Multiple Wounds are only applied to "Attacks". Since Impact Hits are Close Combat Attacks (BRB Pg 71) I don't think casting a spell is considered an "attack"

Although, Direct Damage spells are referred to as "deadly attacks that strike the foe without warning", I still wouldn't try to apply Multiple Wounds to spell effects unless your opponent is really lawyering the rules himself.

The Egg "hits" but it not referred to as an "Attack" so Multiple Wounds shouldn't apply to that either.

Before I used the Bane Head ruling form the old FAQ I would probably apply the logic from the current FAQ:

Q: Does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic only give that
bonus when being used to attack a model?(p4)
A: Most weapons, including magic weapons, state when the
bonus is given. For example, a model with the Fencer’s Blades
will always have Weapon Skill 10 whilst a model with a great
weapon will only have +2 Strength when striking an enemy in
close combat. When a weapon does not say when the
characteristic bonus applies, then it only applies when striking,
or being struck, in close combat.

While the Multiple Wounds rule isn't a "bonus to a characteristic" (Much like the Piranha Blade isn't the Bane Head), I think it is in the spirit of the rules that a weapon that causes multiple wounds only causes those multiple wounds when the weapon itself is used to "strike in close combat".

It's a very poorly written rule (especially considering the working of the weapon just above it on the page), so you can try to squeeze as much out of it as possible but I don't think your friends would be wrong to interpret the rule differently.

 

[Skinquisitor]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

I evoked bane head, becouse as the cupped hands faq said, when you deal a wound with cupped hands, the bane head doubles it. So, the question was for me if the damage is dealt by the magic item, or the wielder. And that answer means that the wound by the cupped hands is made by the slann. So this makes the wounds from egg of quango dealt by the slann, and the slann has multiple wounds (d3).

I agree that this is way much powerfull in this reading, but still i think, the current wording allows this aswell.
Crossing fingers for a faq when 9th ed comes out.

 

[heuningby]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

It's not actually the bearer that does the hits with the egg. The wording states that it is the creature hatching inside it. Piranha blade does give the bearer d3 wounds characteristic so I do apply it with impact hits though, just not an item or spells that wounds

 

[Skinquisitor]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

In the Case of cupped Hands, the bane head doubles the wounds, thats clearly written in the faq, so that means the wounds were caused by the slann. Why wouldnt the same Logic apply to the eggs then?the Hands was a Magic Item aswell, and more indirect,since the miscast did the wound

 

[hdctambien]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

In the Case of cupped Hands, the bane head doubles the wounds, thats clearly written in the faq, so that means the wounds were caused by the slann. Why wouldnt the same Logic apply to the eggs then?the Hands was a Magic Item aswell, and more indirect,since the miscast did the wound

The wording of Bane Head was "All unsaved wounds caused by the bearer on the nominated target are doubled"

The Multiple Wounds rule is worded differently:

"Each unsaved wound inflicted by an attack with the Multiple Wounds special rule is multiplied into more than one wound"

The Multiple Wounds rule requires a wound to be caused by an "attack" in order to be doubled. The Bane Head doubled any unsaved wound no matter the source.

So the question of whether the Piranha Blade multiples a wound is a question of if the wound was caused by an "attack".

Impact Hits are specifically "Close Combat Attacks". The Egg of Quango causes the target to "suffer hits". Spells "inflict hits" or "cause wounds" but I don't think casting a spell is generally considered "attacking". At best, I think you could make an argument that Direct Damage spells are attacks, because they are called out as "deadly attacks" but in general casing a spell consists of:

1. Select a Spell
2. Choose a Target
3. Roll Power Dice
4. Resolve Spell

The rules never refer to casting a spell as "attacking"


Related question: If you case Enchanted Blades of Aiban on a Slann, do all his spells now get the Armor Piercing special rule?

"All of their attacks also count as both magical attacks and have the Armor Piercing special rule"

 

[Lizardmatt]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

The rule for magic weapons is that you only gain the effect of the magic weapon when you are striking with the magic weapon, unless the weapon rules say otherwise.
When guy uses the egg, he is not striking with the weapon, and as such does not get the D3 wounds or the AP.

It doesn't need a FAQ as multiple wounds only apply to hits from the sword, as per the basic rule.

-Matt

 

[Sleboda]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

A little "for" and a little "against" from the same debate platform, just to show fairness -

Direct Damage spells are referred to as "deadly attacks that strike the foe without warning"

The wording states that it is the creature hatching inside it.

=> These are not rules. They are not rules any more than "a Wight King's weapons shimmer with baleful energy" means they get magic attacks or "...it can reknit even the most horrific wound with an effort of will" means that a Crypt Horror has to pass a Leadership test to get its regeneration or "A typical green-skinned lout won't let a minor injury, such as a severed limb, keep him from fighting" means Orcs have 2 wounds base.

When trying to figure out what a rule directs us to do, one of the first things we really should be doing is ignoring the things that are not rules.


"Attack" is not defined in Warhammer (not to be confused with the Attacks characteristic), leaving us with only the 'real world' definition to help us.

at·tack [uh-tak]
verb (used with object)
1. to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon; begin fighting with: He attacked him with his bare hands.

2. to begin hostilities against; start an offensive against: to attack the enemy.

:shrug: To me, it surely does appear as if casting a spell at an enemy is a form of attacking it.


This is what we get when GW cannot bother to define the terms used to create the rules of their game.

 

[hdctambien]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

"Attack" is not defined in Warhammer (not to be confused with the Attacks characteristic), leaving us with only the 'real world' definition to help us.

They don't specifically define what it means to "attack" but look at how much the word is used on BRB Page 48 and how often it is used in the entire Magic section (BRB Pages 28 - 37... exactly once in the sentence that you deemed "not a rule")

It seems that "attacks" are begat from Attacks.

"If a model is touching enemies with different characteristic profiles, it can choose which one to attack..."

"if a model has more than 1 Attack, it can divide its attacks..."

"Roll a D6 for each attack." (and then almost immediately following that: "Roll a D6 for each Attack")

Even the Shooting section specifies that "a model warmed with a missile weapon can use it to make a single shooting attack" (BRB Pg 38)

But casting magic is never referred to as "attacking"....

...Except...

After all of that, I rechecked the FAQ and it does make an interesting assertion:

Q: What are ‘magical attacks’? (p68)
A: All attacks made by spells and magic items are considered
to be magical attacks, as are all attacks that are specifically
noted as being magical attacks. Shots fired from magical items
are also considered to be magical attacks, unless their
description specifically states otherwise. Hits inflicted by rolls
on the Miscast table are treated as magical attacks.

I don't like it, but that may be the ruling that lets a magic casting "model with the Multiple Wounds rule" apply that rule to spells.... I still don't think that would fly in my club though.

 

[Dog On Todd]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

And here I was hoping for a combat surprise slann build.

Don't do this

 

[Sleboda]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

Good research (and forthrightness) there, hdctambien.

 

[Skinquisitor]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

well, im pretty sure thed didnt intend to allow us such builds, id say just dont use it, way too powerful

 

[SilverFaith]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

After all of that, I rechecked the FAQ and it does make an interesting assertion:

Q: What are ‘magical attacks’? (p68)
A: All attacks made by spells and magic items are considered
to be magical attacks, as are all attacks that are specifically
noted as being magical attacks. Shots fired from magical items
are also considered to be magical attacks, unless their
description specifically states otherwise. Hits inflicted by rolls
on the Miscast table are treated as magical attacks.

I don't like it, but that may be the ruling that lets a magic casting "model with the Multiple Wounds rule" apply that rule to spells.... I still don't think that would fly in my club though.

Ouch. Considering my awful luck with miscasts, I will never, ever, consider this on a slann that isn't light, because d3 multiwound miscasts would hurt like a bitch.

 

[NexS1]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

From memory, the Piranha blade says "attacks made with this weapon".. ie: the attacks on your model's profile.
So magic and impact hits aren't affected. The sacred stag helm gives you impact hits, not the piranha blade...

 

[Skinquisitor]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

The actual wording is : the wielder has...And, hell, you dont have to use 6dices always. I Stick to High Magic, It can fix the wounds

 

[heuningby]

Re: piranha blade - stegadon helm - egg of quango-slann ques

Yes, Piranha blade gives the wielder the D3 multiwound special rule. Doesn't say anything about attacks by the weapon thus you have the Piranha blade + Steg helm combo