7th Ed. Overcoming the Black Tongue/Infernal Puppet Combo?

[Arsenal]

The Black Tongue is a 1-use item that turns a failed casting roll into a Miscast, then the Infernal Puppet allows the Chaos player to modify the roll on the miscast table by UP TO a D3. So they can choose your fate, and this can be brutal on a Slann Mage Priest.


Other than the Cupped Hands, and not failing any castings, I don't know how to counter this. Do the Cupped Hands in fact work in this situation? I guess the power of gaining a re-roll on Miscast can possibly help. Any other tips are appreciated.

 

[Bibamus]

well soul of stone would only grant you the reroll, he adds D3 when the fianl dice ar thrown. cupped hands is the only way to avoid it. if you know he has it keep your hands untill he uses the item, then throw the miscast in his face and laugh manically

 

[The Hunted]

Then the question will be:

Can he 'choose' which miscast he will recieve?

Or, in other words:
Does infernal puppet works before or after the cupped hands?
Or, in other words:
Who gets the bang?


The Hunted

 

[skinker]

What army has this combo?

 

[The Hunted]

As far as I Know,

Warriors of Chaos. Also known as Wizards of Chaos.

The Hunted

 

[Bibamus]

well the errata tells us we use the hands after we roll on the miscast table. while the question is a valid one i'd think the agreement should be that the hands are declared after the puppet. the hands are used after you determine what miscast result it is [RAW: after dice are rolled; RAI: after the exact result can be seen] so most people should agree that the hands come after.
arguing it from the other side, while possible, is much more difficult because the puppet is an out of sequence event and its hard to place

 

[Xlcontiqu]

There is a ton on controversy about these combos, so I just try not to take the Cupped Hands at all. Sure maybe I will die to the aforementioned combo, but at least it cleans up the process and I can continue the game without a lot of controversy.

 

[kroxigor01]

Personally I would chose Lore of Metal and Burning Iron the bearer to death (with Bane Head). Law of Gold would be nice to.

I would also always cast on at least 3 dice, 4 if the casting value is 8+.

 

[The Hunted]

Law of Gold is only Meh. Vaul's Unmaking (High Elf Lore) is really nasty.
Law of gold: He gets to choose the item (could well be the Talisman of Protection), and then you have to roll if you actually render it useless (=destroy). Or plant a bug in it, so it won't work for a round...

RoBI+bane head=very nice. Go for it, no more words needed on this one!

The Hunted

 

[Caeldan]

With respect to Black Tongue/Infernal Puppet... plus a Cupped Hands.

Since they're all out of sequence plays, I'd say they'd operate in the order they're declared.

So if the chaos player plays Black Tongue... you roll on the miscast table. Then if they declare the infernal puppet as being played, the miscast table is modified - at which point you can play the cupped hands.

Now if you play cupped hands first, they can play infernal puppet to modify the miscast about to happen on themselves.

Cupped Hands is worded as only being 'if the bearer miscasts', so modifying the miscast table won't affect your ability to play cupped hands.

Puppet's wording is just that you 'may opt to modify any rolls on the miscast table' - so if it's already been reflected back, they can still modify the roll (though I think this might be stretching it slightly as we've now moved on one step past the miscast table).

 

[Bibamus]

i'm surprise it hasn't been mentioned here but this problem is actually adressed in the LM FAQ. the naswer they give is to think what the rational order would be [yeah... thats gonna work] and if all else fails roll a dice when the situation presents itself.
this is the case for the majority of things that happen out of sequence

 

[The Hunted]

That's just GW's saying of;

'We screwed up, and let you figure it out'.

They do that more often than one might think...

THe Hunted

 

[Bibamus]

i disagree with that statement being true in this case.
i read it as as "is a complicated rule and we don't want to put anybody at a disatvantage so we'll let you work it out so it's good for everyone".
if more rules had a FAQ/text like this then maybe rules lawyers would be rarer and the gaming atmosphere overall would be more fun [rules lawyer here]