8th Ed. Ogre Deathstar - 3 Ogre Heros backed by 9 Ironguts

[Shadoer]

So one annoying thing I've seen Ogre Players field in tournaments lately has been the "Ogre Deathstar Unit"

Basically its a unit with three ogree heros in the front rank, specifically the Tyrant, the BSB, and either a bruiser of butcher and 9 or so Iron Guts providing ranks. Then they throw on the Rune Maw Banner that allows it to deflect spells directed at it.

So to summarize this mega cheese burger

1. The 3 hero's are in the front rank, and each rank is 3 ogres wide. Player argues you can only target the Heros (Joy).

2. He then issues a challenge with a guy in the corner and if you accept, it means some of your lizards can't strike back (cause they'd hit the hero in the challenge. His back guys can still hit you though, because of the Ogre Base Size. (Hurrah!)

3. Adding to the problems, the play involves taking a bunch of defensive magic items to make the ogre heroes as tough to kill as possible.

4. The Rune Banner deflects your spells quite nicely and insures he has some immunity to things like Dwellers or Final Transmutation. I suppose things like Purple Sun or Pits of Shade can bypass the Rune Banner ability, but the lore of death and shadow aren't exactly the best lizardmen lores.

So gentlemen, how would you go about taking this thing down?

 

[hdctambien]

Salamanders and Skinks?

Don't give them what they want (Saurus meat). Throw skink after skink at them until you run out of skinks!

Scout Chameleon skinks right in front of them. Vanguard Terradons behind those. Flee from all charges! Double flee if he redirects!

Run your Salamanders and blowpipe skinks up their flanks and fire at will. The more armor saves you make him take, the more 1's he'll roll.

Send your Saurus and Magic after whatever else they have.

Make the ROI of his Deathstar a big fat donut!

 

[Pofadder]

I have played a couple of games against an OK player that runs a gutstar that is similar, differences is he takes a slaughtermaster lvl3 with hellheart and he puts his bsb and slaughtermaster in 2nd rank, with tyrant and command group in front rank.

Couple of notes... direct damage spells targets the unit, thus pit of shades is out, hex spells target as well so no debuffing either, Thus only true vortex spells like Purple sun can get to those suckers. If there is no other OK unit close by do not even attempt a cast on the gutstar as Rune Maw banner states spell will be wasted if no other eligible target is available to bounce the spells to on a 2+ oon a D6 roll...

What I have found best in my limited experience is give them the run around all game via redirection, use your skinks, saliies, chamo's whatever you have to keep the gutstar from combat. kill all his other units = victory and feel glad you did not have to witness the massacre of lizardmen bodies fighting that cheese factory. Between impact hits, 3 characters, and a buttload of GW irongut attacks I think the gutstar will decimate most units in a round or two.

But that is also why the meta moved away from deathstar units, because you just avoid combat through redirection / sacrificial units and the OK opponent cannot bring his 1000+ point unit to bear the whole game.

Get good mileage out of your skinks though as other ogre units are great targets for poison shooting, luckily we can field plenty of those

My two cents on the matter and good luck in your next game. I still prefer to face Gutstars than Nurgle Deamon Princes lol

 

[Stonecutter]

I have had to deal with similar ogrestars and while they are definitely tough, they are by no means impossible to tackle. Given that the typical ogrestar will also include a BSB, standard of discipline & crown of command, the unit is quite resilient and can hang around even when losing combat repeatedly. Taking all this into account, there are two basic solutions to the ogrestar problem:

1) Avoidance - hdctambien has covered the bases very well and it is an effective approach. In a 2400 point battle, the ogrestar will have 1200+ points invested in it between the irongutz and 3 characters. Consequently, even sacrificing 300 points of chaff means that the rest of the army will be outgunned severely, providing an excellent opportunity to wipe it out. End result is a frustrated ogrestar and victory by 600+ points.

2) Combat - As mentioned earlier, the unit is quite resilient and almost as difficult to break in combat as TG & slaan so it requires a dedicated and prolonged effort to grind it down. There are 3 phases involved as follows:

Phase I (Attrition & Separation) - similar to avoidance initially but the emphasis is on attrition of the ogrestar and delaying other units. Sallie templates are surprisingly effective and when coupled with some skink shooting, it should be possible to kill 3+ irongutz prior to combat. At the same time, key supporting units like mournfangs, other ogre blocks or stonehorn/thundertusks must be dealt with (either directly or with a delaying action) so that they will not be able to charge into the combat to support the ogrestar.

Phase 2 (Initial Contact & counter charge) - using a chaff unit, the depleted ogrestar can be directed into an overrun onto an anvil unit (likely TG or skrox). This creates further distance between the ogrestar and supporting units and makes it easier to counter charge the flank with either TG or skrox. The counter charge is critical for the final phase both in active/passive combat res and in preventing any combat reforms (units engaged on multiple flanks may not reform). Of note, the anvil must be sufficiently robust to survive several rounds without magical buffs since the turn of initial combat is nearly certain to see the hellheart revealed and the magic phase drained of power dice.

Phase 3 (The Grind) - With the unit decisively engaged, the grind can begin. The flanking unit can direct all attacks against irongutz and/or a vulnerable character they are in contact with. Since initial contact was the prior turn, the characters will not have had a chance to make way yet and thus the ogre player has a dilemma. With the front and flank engaged, it is impossible to completely prevent attacks against irongutz and the characters will have to spread out. If the BSB has the runemaw banner, his defensive build will be relatively weak and directing attacks his way will have a high value payoff. Even a defensively built BSB without the runemaw is a high value target since killing him off eliminates break test re-rolls, thus permitting full exploitation of a single failed break test. Usually however, focusing on the unit initially is better since it is easier to hit and kill. This increases the longevity of both the anvil and flanking units by reducing the number of S6 attacks. With static resolution and steadfast, it should be possible to grind the unit and then the characters down.


Of the two "solutions", avoidance is definitely easier to execute but I personally enjoy the combat method for two reasons. First, it is challenging to enact and satisfying to actually implement. Furthermore, is is far more enjoyable for both players since everyone gets to roll a lot of dice and combat is very bloody Second, the combat approach increases the odds of victory since VPs can be had from killing off the unit and individual characters while both the anvil and flanking units are likely to survive with at least a few models remaining. Any way you slice it, the ogrestar can be a handful and it takes effort and cunning to deal with it before it deals with you!!

 

[Wizgamer]

I thought challenges were taken as if they were 'away' from the main combat..........

 

[Shadoer]

I thought challenges were taken as if they were 'away' from the main combat..........

Apparently they are in the sense that no one can attack the modles involved in the challenge, but they count for purposes of model placement which allows the exploit.