8th Ed. No love for Iceshard Blizzard? - Skink spells discussion

[Dreadgrass]

Hi all,

So been tinkering with some lists and checking out what other people seem to be planning and I've noticed everyone seems to be running lore of beasts on their skink priests...

In a slann-less army I can understand this, it gives you a nice effective buff-spell and combined with solar-engine Bastilodons can give you a solid magic phase. But in a list that runs a tooled-up slann I'm struggling to find the 3 power dice per casting that Wildform requires. 2 priests casting wildform plus 1 dice for a Basti is pretty much the entirety of an average magic phase.

On the other side of the coin, Iceshard:

- Is significantly easier to cast, generally requiring only 2 dice
- Gives a good counter to enemy artillery
- helps make up for our across-the-board mediocre (at best) WS
- Can put the hurt on enemy fliers, especially the chaff variety
- Can be useful in every turn of the game
- Can have some good synergy with other units (-1 LD combined with a bloodroaring carno or a salamander-shot for example)

Im not saying wildform isn't good (on the contrary, it's great!), and I know it's sort of the "new toy" in the priests kit. But I'm feeling that Iceshard Blizzard is a better support spell for scroll-caddy priests (especially if running them as only lvl.1's), and Wildform is more suited to be cast by a slann.

 

[Arli]

This is probably because the Beasts lore is the "new" thing. Something everyone wants to try out because it is such a change of pace.

I have yet to play the new rules, but I think I would run one priest as a Beasts priest and another as a Heavens priest.

 

[Blackthorne]

I couldn't agree more. I don't quite get the love for beasts, unless the list is centered around that spell (as in taking an engine to make it easier to cast). I think heavens is the best option for a support priest because of all the things you mentioned.

Really, just the protection from war machines makes it worth it in my opinion because there are so many monster in our book and I definitely plan on taking a couple of them every game.

 

[lizardmek]

I take tetto'eko and 1or 2 lvl 2 beast priests

Tetto giving me lore master of heavens is a great tool box and the re-rolling 1s helps
Helps him and the two beast priest cast those important spells

 

[Andrinor]

Totally agree. If I'm adding in a lSkink Priest as a scroll caddy to a Slann list, I'm going with Heavens. But a 2 level 2 Priest list with a Bastiladon is Beasts. Tetto and a level 2 beasts Priest with a Solar Engine is great too.

 

[Drmooreflava]

The reason 2 lvl 2 beast priests is good is so you can have a higher chance of getting the other good spells in the lore as well as the signature. Amber spear... Good at terminating artillery.. permenantly... If you like transformation, that is good option for a 6dice spell on a caster that you don't mind miscasting.

I agree, heavens has its merits. Also, yes, beasts is new and adds a new dimension to the army. Potentially catching opponents off-guard.

I think both beasts and heavens are good supporting lores for high magic.

 

[Cheeto]

. Ogres have the same WS as us, and I don`t hear them complaining to much. I don`t think Iceshard is that useful compared to say hand of glory for combating low WS unless you don't take HM. I also find that the S and T bump of 1 makes a huge deal for being wounded and causing wounds. Now iceshard could be useful for cannons, maybe I'll try it out. For the most part though I find my Saurus wade through most shooting, and my skinks well they just skinks, I don't care if they blow up rather that then something more costly.

In the few games I have played I take two level 1 beast priests in a cohort bunker to check PF, and hold my cube, and dispel scroll. I just feel Wildform goes so well with TG and Saurus. Today the greatest combo played out on my 30 TG with Skaven pelt banner (on my slann) and flaming banner, cast Hand of Glory beefy version that I rolled a 5 so 3+ to I, WS, M, and BS. Plus Wildform, and solar engine I buff. My Temple Guard became WS 7, S 5 (S6 with halberds), I 6. I almost felt bad for my opponent.... almost.

Next game I'll try one priest with heavens and the other with beasts to see how it goes.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Against a lot of opponents, having +1 toughness works out to be the same, or better than -1 to be hit.
Then you compare -1 to leadership vs +1 strength.

-1 leadership makes my opponent break more.
+1 strength lets me win combat by A LOT more.

Heavens can try and shut down a warmachine, reduce enemy shooting or increase chance of panic/break, but that's only against 1 enemy unit.
The +1 strength and toughness you gain against EVERY enemy opponent.

If Iceshard worked as an Augment instead of a Hex, it would be awesome.

 

[Blackthorne]

Except you do really need to take into account the relative casing values, especially for a lvl 1. A 7+ is a lot easier to get off and requires fewer dice than a 10+ meaning more magic phases where you might roll low on winds of magic but can still go for several spells.

That description of the uber combo is great, but a lot of different things had to line up for that to happen. I don't trust magic enough to rely on getting multiple combat breaking spells off in a given phase whereas I feel more confident getting one spell off, especially if all my options are easy to cast.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Except you do really need to take into account the relative casing values, especially for a lvl 1. A 7+ is a lot easier to get off and requires fewer dice than a 10+ meaning more magic phases where you might roll low on winds of magic but can still go for several spells.

That description of the uber combo is great, but a lot of different things had to line up for that to happen. I don't trust magic enough to rely on getting multiple combat breaking spells off in a given phase whereas I feel more confident getting one spell off, especially if all my options are easy to cast.

I don't need a super combo. I'm more than happy with "just" 28 S5 attacks from my 300 point saurus block, with only a single spell boosting them.

-Matt

 

[Cheeto]

Except you do really need to take into account the relative casing values, especially for a lvl 1. A 7+ is a lot easier to get off and requires fewer dice than a 10+ meaning more magic phases where you might roll low on winds of magic but can still go for several spells.

That description of the uber combo is great, but a lot of different things had to line up for that to happen. I don't trust magic enough to rely on getting multiple combat breaking spells off in a given phase whereas I feel more confident getting one spell off, especially if all my options are easy to cast.

If you have a level two heavens priest you still need a 5+ to cast it on one die, a 4+ if you have ETOG but I find blow-pipes to be far more useful this edition and cheaper. So if you don't bring an EOTG you will still need to throw two dice to get off iceshard. I'm sure never gonna to take all 8 sig spells on my Slann, or swap out a HM spell for ice-shard when there are other spells I would rather have. I'm finding HM to be perfect for LM.

Even if I didn't get the uber combo, I could cast a smaller version of hand of glory and still get the WS boost even in the lowest form is exactly equal to iceshard, and like I said prefer S and T boost for dropping an armor saves. (I'm sure in the end +1 to hit and +1 S are around the sameish in the long run)

 

[Dreadgrass]

Note: I had this written out more eloquently, but my laptop threw a tantrum so you've got the re-written version, sorry!

I can agree that Wildform can be better in a lot of situations, and a powerful list can probably be made around spamming it. I just think there are many situations where iceshard is as-good if not better for a cheaper investment.

Power Dice Management

Wildform is a 10+ to cast, your skink priest will need to throw at least 3 dice at it to have a good chance at casting. With 2 Priests casting that's 6 dice. Being a relatively good spell and having a decent amount of dice invested in it, your opponent may warrant it worthy of throwing a few dice at, if they are packing a lvl.4 mage they have at least a +2 advantage in wizard levels for dispelling. Throwing more dice at wildform gives you a better chance at getting it off successfully or drawing a dispel scroll, but also involves even more of a dice investment.

Iceshard Blizzard is a 7+ to cast, your skink will need to throw 2 dice at it for a good chance at casting. With 2 priests casting that's 4 dice. This puts it into more of a "support" spell in my mind rather than the need-to-cast that the wildform can become. Probably not worth investing more than 2 dice into per casting, as your goal is to get more mileage out of your slann.

Summary: 6+ dice are involved to cast your Wildforms successfully, whereas the Iceshards only really require 4. That's a 50% less investment from your PD pool.

Use outside of combat

I agree, bar a few exceptions, Wildform is hands-down the better support spell once the battlelines have met if comparing the spells in a vacuum. What about when your not in combat though?

Wildform can protect 1 unit in your army against all the low-medium strength shooting the enemy chooses to throw at it. Iceshard, on the other hand, protects your whole army from a single target. It could just be my meta, but I don't see many armies with large numbers of RnF shooters. Most worthwhile ranged attacks come from a single elite shooting unit (Pistol-eaters or Sisters of Averlorn spring to mind), and/or artillery, with many 8th ed armies having some form of cannon these days. Wildform does nothing against cannons, poison-focused shooting, or massed low strength shooting plinking at your big gribblies (as it needs 6's to wound anyway) There are also the minor benefits of the -1LD de-buff which can be combined with things such as forcing panic tests, keeping a valuable enemy unit fleeing, or making those steadfast blocks just a little more brittle.

Combined with a slann

This pretty much touches on the less-dice deal above, if you invest a significant amount of points into a slann, you want to get the most out of him, and not be dropping 1/2 your PD into skink-spells.

Another point to consider though, is if wildform is fairly focal to your strategy, why are you throwing it with lvl. 1-2 mages instead of the slann? There are a few ways to get it on him (wandering deliberations, choosing beast lore straight off the bat, swapping for it with High magic) and he can cast it relatively easily on 2 dice (like the 2 spare dice you had from casting Iceshards instead of wildform?), or throw the 3 and make it harder for the enemy to counter. This is a pretty big selling point for me as you generally won't get a lot of mileage out of wildform for the first few turns, which is plenty of time to sub something out for it with high magic.

So, lets say you have a fairly average magic phase and have 9 PD (rolled up 7, +1 from channelling, +1 from some other source), you throw your 2 wildforms.... and your lvl.4 mage has 3 dice left to use, so probably 1 worthwhile spell or a jab at 2 cheapies. Same scenario with Iceshard, the slann has 5, almost twice as many dice and has a lot more options on where and how to use those dice.

Again, I would like to re-iterate that WILDFORM IS GREAT! I just think iceshard has more tactical flexibility, is easier to cast, can help some lists against their hard-counters (eg. Monster mash VS cannons) and is best cast from a priest where a slann makes wildform a much bigger threat.

 

[Cheeto]

Deadgrass you bring up some fair points, enough so that I'm convinced it will come in handy. Though I find you have over looked one key point range.

I agree about PD engagement and I usually do end up swapping a spell out for wildform with my slann. Most of the time after casting Arcane or fiery I know I will usually only get it off once, so I switch it out when I do.

Iceshard is cheaper, if the target you are casting at is within 24inches. If you are looking at this spell as anti-range/warmachine (especially warmachine). The targets you are after during turn 1 and 2 will be outside that 24 inch range, as many players enjoy placing there cannons/stone throwers on the far flanks tucked in tight to the back edge. So to be in range for these guys you will have to cast the buffed up version which is 10+ same as wildform, and still requiring to cast three dice. Though if that saves my steg or my bastildon will it be well worth those three dice.

It is possible to get a priest with in range during that turn 1/2, but I use my skinks to buff my Saurus, hold my dispel/cube, and check PF. I don't want them running all over the battlefield and getting trounced.

With more thinking I think they best way to go is one of each, I'll be keeping mine as level 1, as those points can buy more meat for the army.

 

[Soteks Prophet]

. Ogres have the same WS as us, and I don`t hear them complaining to much. I don`t think Iceshard is that useful compared to say hand of glory for combating low WS unless you don't take HM. I also find that the S and T bump of 1 makes a huge deal for being wounded and causing wounds. Now iceshard could be useful for cannons, maybe I'll try it out. For the most part though I find my Saurus wade through most shooting, and my skinks well they just skinks, I don't care if they blow up rather that then something more costly.

In the few games I have played I take two level 1 beast priests in a cohort bunker to check PF, and hold my cube, and dispel scroll. I just feel Wildform goes so well with TG and Saurus. Today the greatest combo played out on my 30 TG with Skaven pelt banner (on my slann) and flaming banner, cast Hand of Glory beefy version that I rolled a 5 so 3+ to I, WS, M, and BS. Plus Wildform, and solar engine I buff. My Temple Guard became WS 7, S 5 (S6 with halberds), I 6. I almost felt bad for my opponent.... almost.

Next game I'll try one priest with heavens and the other with beasts to see how it goes.

I think bonuses to hit are better because you have to hit before you can wound. There's no point having lots of stonger attacks if they are not accurate, so in my book generally speaking, accuracy is better as it offers more potential wounds

 

[Tecuani]

The odds are the same whichever way round you roll the dice. Important advantages of +1S rather than +1 to hit would be-
Thunderstomp and impact hits respect no modifiers-they hit you however many iceshard blizzards you cast.
To wound rolls have a steeper curve, so where you'll rarely hit on worse than a 4+ you will sometimes be needing 5 or even 6 to wound, in which case +1 provides a larger bonus. My saurus have more often found themselves limited by S4 than by WS3.
Quite importantly, +1S also affects armour saves, so except against unarmoured opponents you gain bonuses to two dice rolls instead of just one.

However, wildform does +1S and +1T, so you gain a similar defensive boost to iceshard blizzard, and the offensive capabilities as a bonus-that it affects killing power *and* defence is one of the things which make it a good spell.

Iceshard blizzard is cheaper to cast and has a better range, with additional applications against missile fire.

Hand of glory will, depending on your roll and respective WS, provide either +1 to hit or -1 to hit on your opponent. Unreliably, it might do both against an opponent with just the right WS on a good roll, but it might also sometimes do neither. To my mind, that places it on a similar level to iceshard blizzard's certain -1 to hit, minus the uses against missile troops and the leadership penalty. It has the lowest casting value of any of the three spells, but also the lowest range, at only 18" and no way to boost it.
In support of a slann, the choice between heavens or beasts comes down to what type of slann you're using-if it's a high magic slann, than it lacks a powerful buff/hex on the order of wildform, so a priest with Wyssan's is adding an important spell type to your casting list. If, on the other hand, you're running a slann with life, light, or shadow, you already have plenty of powerful augments or hexes, so it might be better to take the cheaper and more versatile iceshard blizzard.
My own preferences in support of Tehenhuin is to have one of each type of priest-one of beasts so I have two copies of wildform, making it a lot harder for my opponent to dispel, and one of heavens to add versatility.

 

[Caneghem]

Lots of good discussion here, it has got me thinking about what I use as my defaults for skink magic support. I'm thinking one of the caddies might take heavens, just because of how well it synergizes with Hand of Glory. -1 to hit for things with WS4 against saurus isn't all that impressive, both sides hit on 4's. But if you can adjust the Saurus to WS5 with HoG, suddenly you are hitting on 3's while the opponent hits on 5's. Now you combine these two spells with the threat of a second skink priest throwing a Wyssan's on the saurus, you begin to force your opponent into very difficult decisions for dispelling.

 

[CookieGuy]

If I run a Slann with High Magic or Signature Spells, I get a lot of fun out of 1 of each type of Priest. That gives me 2 Wildforms (as long as I can swap out 1 HM spell), and a lot more versatility. I have always liked Harmonic Convergence on Saurus, even more now with Predatory Fighter. Just my 2 cents.