8th Ed. new title: what would you use in a tourney vs uknown armies

[harbinger334]

hey guys i wanted to creat this poll to see what peoples prefrences are as to whether people prefer razordons or salamanders what do you guys think?

 

[harbinger334]

Re: razordons or salamanders in the new book

feel free to leave any comments as to why you think they are better etc

 

[Screamer]

Re: razordons or salamanders in the new book

It depends what you want. The sallies are excellent vs big blocks, and can easily manage a horde by themselves.
The razordons is better against MSU-lists, and smaller blocks (10-20) and as singles they are cheap, and pretty solid redirectors. Small blocks with bad armoursave don't like the artillery-die, +re-rollable artillery die and after that they face 2 S5+ 3-4 S3 attacks at descent initiative.

I would like to play with 1+3 razordons and 2+2 salamanders. They just have different niches, and razordons have about the same niche as javelin skirmishers. No poison, but a lot more durable in cc.

 

[ElectricPaladin]

Re: razordons or salamanders in the new book

Here's my 15¢:

Razordons are better if what you really want is a monster. The shooting is mediocre, because you need to rely on the razordon's mediocre BS. In order to have even a chance of putting a dent in your target, you need to be pretty close (ie. within 9'' to avoid the long range penalty), and you need to get lucky with the artillery dice. However, between Quick to Fire and the razordon being a pretty tasty monster in combat, you can play the bastards really far forward. You dare your opponent to charge - if he doesn't, you either charge in yourself, or continue using the mediocre shooting to harass likely targets.

Salamanders, though, are better if what you want is artillery. The template, flaming attacks, and non-BS shooting all combine to make for something that is quite good at putting the hurt on large units, and possibly even causing them to turn tail and run, which is hilarious.

The reason the salamander comes out on top, in the end, is that we already have a ton of decent monsters for combat. Stegadons, carnosaurs, and (figuratively speaking), old-bloods, temple guardians, and big-ass units of buffed up cold one riders. What we don't have is much in the way of super effective shooting, and the salamanders come close. They are just as effective as razordons in close combat, even though they can't put out a punishing torrent of spikes as a charge reaction.

All together, that cuts out a lot of potential advantages that razordons have. The one thing razordons really have that salamanders don't is the ability to target a naked hero with tons of shots and try to nick it to death (templates can only ever deal one wound to lone models). This is a great idea... except who the heck uses naked heroes without protecting them sufficiently? And, since you're relying on 5s and 6s to hit anyway, you may as well kill that sort of target with blowpipe/javelin skink skirmishers.

So, it's salamanders all the way for me. Razordons aren't bad - it's just that we have other stuff to do what they do, and nothing else that does what salamanders do.

 

[VampTeddy]

Re: razordons or salamanders in the new book

The above argument made me vote for the sallie, since it is highly accurate.

But comparing these two isn't really fair since they serve different roles - as such in a list you might as well use both, just one, or none. I really don't feel one necessarily outperforms the other in it's given role. The sallies advantage is that it's role is unique to us - i have never seen my opponent as scared for a creature as i see them be afraid of a Sallie, heck they'd probably focus cannon fire on it before shooting on a Stegadon.

 

[Sleboda]

Re: razordons or salamanders in the new book

Any chance for a poll option for "neither?"

 

[harbinger334]

Re: razordons or salamanders in the new book

And i guess your right vamp teddy i guess what i should change the question to is what would you take most or something and yeah ok ill add neither

 

[Sleboda]

Re: razordons or salamanders in the new book

Thanks. Voted!

Now, the reason why.

I take neither. Salamanders are in everyone's army and I want to be different. Razordons are Finecast, and I hate Finecast. Plus, even though they are cool and fit my theme of 'monsters, monsters everywhere' I just can't bring myself to drop other monsters to take them.

 

[harbinger334]

Re: razordons or salamanders in the new book

Hmm yeah i see your point i hate finecast too failcast its horrible to work with i would have preferdd metal modepls any day

 

[Mr Phat]

Re: razordons or salamanders in the new book

GUYS!



we have move past this before!

Razordons are not Salamanders and not the other way around!

one can not do the others job, we talked this over, we agreed upon it and we know better now!

are we also gonna have

Terradons or Ripper Dactyls?

Skirmishers or Cohorts?

Stegadons or Bastiladons?

different units, different jobs.

for me to answer that poll you have to tell me what that job is, if in general my answer is a sounding BOTH!

 

[harbinger334]

Re: razordons or salamanders in the new book

hmm ok i understand your point it is a bit too general how about we change it to what would you take with you to a tournaent

 

[Mr Phat]

Re: new title: what would you use in a tourney vs uknown arm

Well then you changed the question everyone who answered so far has replied to ^^
when I say job I mean what I want them to do.
Like this:

- clear/be chaff
- clear infantry blocks
- clear monsterous models
- deal with flanks
- be the center of the shooting phase
- charge block

It depends what you need covered.
If I go heavy combat list where I expect a lot of combats to go down
I might want a unit that can both add to combat, block/redirect counter charges
And add some ranged to a melee army to deal with other redirectors...that would be a razordon, since a salamander dont stand and shoot, isnt as usable against few-model units and is more expensive.

If I on the other hand play the "thin them out" game where I try to avoid combat for as long as possible and ravage their combat blocks from a far then there really isnt any other choice than a salamander flank-shot

Its all about the list and all about the strategy.

 

[ElectricPaladin]

Re: new title: what would you use in a tourney vs uknown arm

Vs. Unknown Armies? I prefer Mage: the Ascension. It does similar things, but benefits from the fact that the entire game is just a little but easier to understand. Although Unknown Armies is more characterful on the base level and scales up in a more interesting way, it's hurt by the fact that the place the game goes at the highest level is, ultimately, pretty boring and hard for the players to interact with, whereas Mage, on a high level, is still pretty player-driven.

 

[harbinger334]

Re: new title: what would you use in a tourney vs uknown arm

hmm which would you guys take if for instance we were in a 2250 pt tournament say would you take any at all?

 

[olderplayer]

Re: new title: what would you use in a tourney vs uknown arm

Both sallies and razors are effectively the same in combat and both are now monstrous beasts (which is a significant improvement in the metagame over being classified as war beasts because they now get to stomp and are immune to stomp and thunderstomp and cause fear). However, you generally would not take either a sally or a razor as a combat monstrous beast unit. The point costs are way too high for that. As skirimishers, in combat with a unit with even just a full front rank at the end of combat the opposing unit will be steadfast and they cannot break ranks. S5 in combat is nice but you only have 2 attacks at WS3 and maybe one stomp (against infantry); T4 is nice as well but with only 5+ AS, the razor will die if hit enough in combat or by maigc or shooting even by S3 attacks (even with succesful wounds killing the skinks on 5+ with the monsters and handlers rule). You get the 3 attacks from the skink handlers (as long as they last) as well but at WS2 and S3, they don't do much. Also, if you lose all the handlers, LD4, even with cold blooded LD, means a likely failed monster reaction test and limted utility of the unit for the rest of the game. This means you would never pay the point cost just for a combat monstrous beast of this type. Maybe one would pay 35 to 45 points for a monstrous beast unit with the abilities in combat of a razor or sally unit. Thus, the units must be justified by their role in the army as shooting platforms.

Shooting attacks: They are skirmishers but can no longer march and shoot. That significantly reduces the utility of both the razor and the sally units.
My assessment is that you have the ability to gain more reliable and effective shooting by paying for 10 skink skirmishers with javelins than one unit of razors and gain more shooting attacks and wounds from the unit with the same armour save. The ability of sknk skirmishers to march and shoot effectively compensates for the range differences; and poison shooting is more effective than S4 generally. If razors had AP shooting, then the issue would be closer but S4 with BS 3, even with artillery dice shots, is not that great, especially when charged since you will usually have a -1 for long range and -1 for stand and shoot. Given their special rules, one would expect no stand and shoot penalty for razors, but it turns out that is not the case. A razor only gets a 5/6 chance of shooting with an average of 6 shots, typically achieving only one or two hits, maybe 3 at short range, and 1/6 chance of eating D3 skink handlers. Then you have to roll to wound as well. 10 skink skirmishers with javelins also have quick to fire but can march closer and will average 1.67 autowounds and another 1 to 2 hits beyond that; that makes them more of a threat to high T but poor AS units. The bottom line is S4 with BS3 is often inferior to S3 with BS3 poison shooting skinks and the skinks are cheaper and more reliable (more average shots and far more average hits and wounds) in standing and shooting and moving and shooting (especially with javelins not suffering a movement penalty and being quick to fire). Skink skirmishers are effectively more mobile due to march and shoot abilities and give more total effective wounds to the unit (although shots are lost as wounds are suffered). For this reason, I find a preference for using skink cohorts and skink skirmishers which help fill up the core quota anyway instead of razors.

On the other hand, the potential for mass autohits of fire throwers and the benefits of flaming attacks and panic tests is something that gives sallies a special role in the army for dealing with the large blocks of elite T4 and T3 units so common in the current metagame as well as dealing with special threats, like fast cav and scouts (esp gutter runners). The loss of march and shoot and increase in points cost makes salamanders significantly less attractive than before but I would still pay the points cost for a decent mobile S4 fire thrower option plus a skirmishing monstrous beast with its total stats and rules.

 

[hardyworld]

Re: new title: what would you use in a tourney vs uknown arm

I completely concur with everything olderplayer states above. His assessment matches mine in all facets.

A gnoblar for your efforts, sir. Oops, wrong forum

 

[n810]

Re: new title: what would you use in a tourney vs uknown arm

But Razordond have a greater range than skinks, also you forgot about thier ability to re-roll aruiliary dice on a stand and shoot. Oh and don't forget that all of the handles get to fight in close combat as well,
and wounds are randomly alocated to handlers, efectively making them disposable ward saves.

Ps, also Razordons are best taken in larger units, as it averages out ther odds better,
and they get to share handlers.

 

[Prof]

Re: new title: what would you use in a tourney vs uknown arm

Ps, also Razordons are best taken in larger units, as it averages out ther odds better,
and they get to share handlers.

really, they share handlers? I haven't seen that rule. How does that work?

 

[olderplayer]

Re: new title: what would you use in a tourney vs uknown arm

Actually, I factored all those issues in the discussion above, if you read closely. Nothing is perfect but skink skirmishers with javs have quick to fire and skirmisher and move and shoot abilities. so they dulplicate much of the rule of a razordown in actual game play. It is just too difficult to go through in even more detail in a written post all the calculations and permutations for the skink handler attacks, the effective difference in range (the greater range of the bards is netted against the skink skimisher ability to march and shoot with free reforms against the move and shoot of the razor and factored into the average hit rate for both standard shooting and stand and shoot), the skink handler effective 5+ ward save (remember you lose skink handler attacks and risk a monster reaction test as you lose handlers), and I considered the re-roll on the art dice for the stand and shoot (although that is not explicitly mentioned above). I always treat salamander and razordon units as though they have 4.5 effective wounds with a 5+ armour save, whereas skink skirmishers have 10 effective wounds with a 5+ armour save with the shield (technically a parry save when in combat) but are T3, instead of T4.

Agreed on the sharing of handlers in a single unit of up to 3 sallies or razors. Beyond 3 they become unwieldy and too many points invested for the purpose. The benefits of sharing handlers is pretty muted beyond three. In fact, my son, who plays LM the most with a lot of success, believes two sallies per unit is optimal and running a solo sally for the chaff/redirection role is worth doing. He plays a lot with one sally in one unit and two in a second unit. Remember, if one sally is killed in a unit of 4 or less, that is 25% or more of the wounds and models in the unit, so larger units with the lower LD of skinks now is an issue with panic tests and people will and should target sallies with magic spells and cannons and such.

The rules for sharing handlers within a unit are outlined in the Hunting Pack rules on page 46 of the new LM book. Note that Monsters and handlers means that the handlers are not actually ranked up in combat or treated as physically existing for movement and other purposes, They just sort of trail behind the salamanders and cannot be separately attacked, targetted or charged or otherwise block line of sight or movement. A handler remains in the unit (Hunting Pack) until it is either removed due to a misfire, removed when the monstrous beast suffers an unsaved wound and rolls a 5+ tand then removes a handler instead of the beast taking a wound, or when the last beast in the unit is killed. Yet, each handler gets an attack in combat; in that sense, they are sort of like the crew for a war machine.

 

[n810]

Re: new title: what would you use in a tourney vs uknown arm

basicly if you have a unit of say 3 razordons,
and shooting managed to kill off all but one
then you still don't have to take monster reaction test,
untill the last handler is dead.