8th Ed. >New rules: MY take on the new unit

[Mr Phat]

Most of you might have read me complaining about the new units in the book in some thread (forgive me for the overflood)

in the latest hissy fit I stated that the new units "Bastiladon" "Troglodon" and "Ripperdactyls" where failed concepts because of poor designs, and that I could do it better.

I try to be a man of my word, so I have been trying to brainstorm a little and actually found that I enjoy writting fluf, making rules and developing.

Thus I decided: im gonna work on my own Lizardmen Expansion, which I of course will share with you guys at some point...

For now, here is the first draft of what I have the guts to call a "fix" for the new units.

first of :

Ripperdactyls
- Havnt played them yet so I cant really comment. They seem nice as they are and I think they work as they should.....I would change the name and models though, but thats personal taste...so im gonna leave these out for now.


Remember this is first draft, meaning: nothing has been testet, meaning: its purely concept.

If anyone would like to test the stuff and throw the results my way, by all means do.

----------------------------------------------- Bastiladon -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bastiladon: M4 WS3 BS0 S4 T5 W5 I1 A3 LD6
Skink Crew: M- WS3 BS3 S3 T- W- I4 A1 LD-

Troop Type: Monster

Special Rules: Always Strike Last (Bastiladon only)ColdbloodedHowdah Crew
Large TargetScaly Skin (2+) Terror

"Impervious Defence:
For the purpose of calculating combat result bonuses, a Bastiladon counts as having no flanks or rear.
Furthermore a Bastiladons armour will not be modified by attacks of any kind made with a strenght of 4 or less. Instead the modifier will begin from S5. Meaning 5 will modify -1, 6 will modify -2 and so on.

"Thunderous Bludgeon."
As it is.

Equipment:
"Solar Engine." - xxPTS ? <-- Not sure if this actually needs to cost something, though it feels like it.

All friendly units with the cold-blooded special rule within 6'' of the Bastiladon gets +1 Initiative. In addition a Solar Engine contains the innate bound spell, Beam of Chotec

Note: the current one dosnt stack, which I for the life of me dont get. Why should I not be allowed to invest further in initiative?

"Beam of Chotec"Innate Boundspell power (level 3). Beam of chotec is a magic missile with a range of 24'' and causes 2D6 Strenght 4 hits.
If the caster is in the frontarc of another Bastiladon with the solar engine, increase this to 3D6 Strenght 5 hits, and if it is in the frontarc of two or more Bastiladons with solar engines increase this to 3D6 S6 hits which in addition makes the target suffer a -1 Penalty to their WS and BS (to a minimum of 1) until the start of the bastiladons next magic phase.

NOTE:- Since we have a monster which WANTS to fight with its tail first, I found it weird that anyone would choose to put a magic missile engine on its back (forward arc). Ive tried to get that part to make sense, as the Solar Engines can now power up eachothers beams, thus creating synergy from both Front and Rear arc.


"Ark of Sotek"
As it is..I actually like this one, as it seems like the original idea for the Bastil. With it the rear arc issue is irrellevant.

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--------------------------------------------------TROGLODON--------------------------------------------------------------------

Troglodon: M7 WS3 BS4 S5 S5 T5 W5 I2 A4 LD5
Oracle: M- WS2 BS3 S3 T- W- I4 A1 LD6

Type: Monster
Special Rules
Arcane Vasale (oracle only)
Aquatic
Cold-blooded
Large Target
Scaly Skin (4+)
Terror.

May still upgrade a "Divining Rod"

Beast rider: as it is

Primeval Roar:
Changed from "once per battle" to "when it charges"

"Ink-Gali pollen":
"The ink-gali is a common flower in the brightest regions of Lustria. Although not poisonous as most lustrian flora it has developed another kind of defensive mekanism. When punctured the flower bursts out a screen of scentless pitch-black pollen, which in contact with the eye membrane of the offender becomes a thick tar-like liquid, which leaves the offender temporaily blind for predators to take.
Through observation of this mekanism Oracles have found a cruel use for the ink-gali. By carefully picking the flowers without triggering them, they bring them to combat. When the Oracle and his steed comes in contact with an enemy he punctures a flower to spray the combat with
Pollen.
Although both he and the enemy must protect their eyes from the pollen, the already blind Troglodon is unaffected by the black cloud."

During each combat round, if he did not shoot, the Skink Oracle may exchange one Attack for using the Ink-Galli Pollen. If he does all non-Troglodon units in the combat suffers a -1 penality To Hit.


"Poisonous Predator"
If a Troglodon rolls a 6 To Hit it automaticaly makes 2 Wounds as though they were attacks with the "Poisoned Attacks" special rule.



NOTES:- The "Skink within 6'' " part of the Predatory Fighter rule is left out on purpose, as the Skink Oracle is suspected to have perfect control over his steeds as both the fluff and the "beast rider" rule implies.

 

[PlasmaDavid]

So nice he posted thrice

 

[Mr Phat]

So nice he posted thrice

the internets choice mate! not mine ^^

critique?

 

[loota]

"Impervious Defence"
I don't like the fact it changes the core machanics of strenght-armour penatration rules and just feels unneccasary on a monster which already has toughness 5 and 2+ save with multiple wounds.

"Beam of Chotec"
Having this do a flat 2d6 str4 hits is fine but the rest of it feels clumsy, who's going to spend 400-600 points just for a 3d6 str 6 bound spell? not only that but you need all 3 to be in each others frontal arc.

Troglodon
"primeval Roar"
I like changing this to "on charge" rather than once per game.

"Ink-Gali pollen"
Ignoring the fact that the oracle is somehow obsessed with carrying flowers around with him whilst not accidently sitting on them (which is just silly), it also makes using the Troglodon WORSE at supporting your own units by giving them -1 to hit? is the idea to run the Troglodon into units solo?

"Poisonous Predator"
This feels like a "poor-mans" carnosaur, i think it'd make much more sense simply to give it a pseudo poison breath weapon attack.

Please take this as honest constructive critisism, i think overall the ideas are good but they're certainly not polished yet as you said

 

[thedanman13]

If only you worked for GW... *dreamy sigh*

 

[IronJaw]

I definitely like the your Troglodon better.... Too bad GW is too arrogant to make any major changes to the monster now...

 

[spawning of Bob]

No No No Phatmofo. You are Head of the BAD concepts department!

SoB

 

[Pofadder]

I like the pollen idea better than a venom spit attack that only targets a single model and does D3 multi-wound at BS3.
Geez GW could have made it D6 s5 hits rather...

 

[Mr Phat]

No No No Phatmofo. You are Head of the BAD concepts department!

SoB

I think I see through that clever disguise! Thanks for the compliment

 

[Mr Phat]

Double post.

 

[Mr Phat]

Ignoring the fact that the oracle is somehow obsessed with carrying flowers around with him whilst not accidently sitting on them (which is just silly), it also makes using the Troglodon WORSE at supporting your own units by giving them -1 to hit? is the idea to run the Troglodon into units solo?

remember that the oracle "May" use it. Meaning he dosnt have to.
So if you plow the big blind one into the side of a big battle you just choose not to.

but, I see your point..so perhaps it should be changed to "units in basecontact" ...I just have feeling this will be OP, so perhaps just "models in basecontact" ...thoughts?

"Impervious Defence"
I don't like the fact it changes the core machanics of strenght-armour penatration rules and just feels unneccasary on a monster which already has toughness 5 and 2+ save with multiple wounds.

I had second thoughts on this one too..my only problem is that even though the Bastil seems tough, it gets picked off pretty quickly..which I dont think a "FortressDon" should. but your right on this one...it bends too much and needs change.

"Beam of Chotec"Having this do a flat 2d6 str4 hits is fine but the rest of it feels clumsy, who's going to spend 400-600 points just for a 3d6 str 6 bound spell? not only that but you need all 3 to be in each others frontal arc

I know what you mean, but I actually tried this out on the table.
Its fairly easy to have all in eachothers arch if you have one on each flank, and one in center.
and by the time they have to turn to their tail, there will most likely be targets close enough to your other units for them to target.

and your not paying 600 for 1 boundspell, you are paying 600 to stack it up to 3 times for 3 tuned up bound spells..

This serves multiple purposes
1. Your enemy want to take them out before they get to go off, hence target saturation and draw-fire.
2. They help out in the magic phase by drawing dispel dice.
3. they are actually worth taking as multiple choices (did I mention that currently the initiative bonus dont stack?)
THIS MEANS MOAAR MODELS SOLD GW!!

This feels like a "poor-mans" carnosaur,

I know! aint it great to have the opportunity outside hero points?

Please take this as honest constructive critisism, i think overall the ideas are good but they're certainly not polished yet as you said

I like your comment the most mate, well considered

 

[n810]

For the bastilidon, how about a straight -1 or -2 to wound ?

 

[Mr Phat]

Its possible, and not a bad idea... im just a sucker for when the rules reflect the fluff so i'd like it to be armourvise -.- ...and +1 AS is just too easy bought

 

[Mr Phat]

HOW COME EVERYTHING I POST GETS DOUBLED!?
- Delete please -

 

[n810]

Its possible, and not a bad idea... im just a sucker for when the rules reflect the fluff so i'd like it to be armourvise -.- ...and +1 AS is just too easy bought

OK something fluffier ehh...

Hardened Carapace:
Immune to killing blow and heroic killing blow,
against all roll to wound rolls:
-1 to wound against strenght 4 and 5.
-2 to wound against strenght 6 and up.

 

[Mr Phat]

thats actually pretty well put... ..good one n810

god I wish Games Workshop did this......

"Hey guys, what do you think of this idea?"
"We think this and this"
"oh...right, didnt think of that! we will take it into our considerations"

...If only they interacted with the fanbase instead of alienate it.....there so much to gain, also for them!

crowd-sourcing is real power when talking innovation and design..... and it can so easily be done without letting out secrets....

 

[FavoredoftheOldOnes]

thats actually pretty well put... ..good one n810

god I wish Games Workshop did this......

"Hey guys, what do you think of this idea?"
"We think this and this"
"oh...right, didnt think of that! we will take it into our considerations"

...If only they interacted with the fanbase instead of alienate it.....there so much to gain, also for them!

crowd-sourcing is real power when talking innovation and design..... and it can so easily be done without letting out secrets....

+1 on this. Really like N810's idea and after reading everyone else's suggestions on your stuff Phatmotha I have to say I am curious to see what you change around and look forward to the next part. Oh and glad to also see that your a "fluffy" type guy as well. No that wasn't a fat joke

 

[Tlaloc of Xhotl]

I think they had the right idea with the bastillodon but made it too weak. In all of the new fluff and rules and pictures it's a huge tank...but T5...

I like your ideas but would modify them a little


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bastiladon: M4 WS3 BS0 S5 T6 W5 I1 A3 LD6
Skink Crew: M- WS3 BS3 S3 T- W- I4 A1 LD-

Troop Type: Monster

Special Rules: Always Strike Last (Bastiladon only)ColdbloodedHowdah Crew
Large TargetScaly Skin (2+) Terror

Impervious hide - The Bastiladon's thick, stone-like hide makes it extremely difficult to kill outright. Hits that do multiple wounds have their results halved and heroic killing blow is negated on a roll of 4+

-NOTE- Not sure about the HKB part. It IS meant to kill tough monsters after all. (also, side note - why isn't Gok-ror immune to poison??)

Impenetrable Defence - The Bastiladon has no flanks or rear for purposes of combat resolution.


Arc of Sotek and Solar Engine both upgrades

Solar Engine (+xx points)
Lizardmen units within 8 inches (6 is too small) have +1 initiative.

Ability: The solar engine contains a bound spell (power level 4) which can be cast as a magic missile (range 24 or 36) in the magic phase.

Roll a D6. The target unit takes
1- D6 S3 hits
2&3 - D6+1 S4 hits
4&5 - 2D6 S4 hits and the enemy unit has -1 WS and BS for their next turn
6 - 2D6 S5 hits and the enemy unit has -D3 WS and BS for their next turn
in addition when the solar engine is cast and not dispelled, lizardmen units within 6 inches gain a further +1 initiative for the turn.

Arc of Sotek (+xx points)
Skink units within 8 inches gain +1 ld (it's a relic of their favourite god and they need a ld love)

Every turn in the movement phase jungle swarms within 8 inches regain D3 wounds.

Abiltiy: The arc of sotek contains a bound spell (power level 4) which can be cast as an augment on jungle swarms (range 12) in the magic phase.

Roll a D6. The target unit gains
1 - 1 wound regained
2&3 - D3 wounds regained
4&5 - a new swarm base
6 - a new swarm base and rerolls to hit for the turn
in addition when the arc of sotek is cast and not dispelled, lizardmen units within 6 inches with the poison special rule have their attacks poison on a roll of 5 or 6 for the turn.

The Bastiladon is tough with it's armour but not enough. T6 and 2+ armour is VERY tough and protects from most S4 and under. Halving D6 wounds makes cannons take at least 2 turns to kill it. I like the solar engine and sotek arc ideas but felt their buff range meant theyd have to be in the middle of the army to benefit more than 1 unit rather than on the flanks making use of their "no flank or rear" rule so I buffed the range. I made them a bit stronger but added points cost so you can choose a naked one to protect flanks or expensive but buffing one to protect flanks and support.

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Troglodon.

I like the idea of a support monster but don't like the rules or points!

I like your changes and would suggest the following.

- The skink can channel

- The skink has a debuffing flower but throws it when he charges (has to roll to hit) and it doesn't affect lizardmen

- Primeval roar when it charges is very nice

- The creature has BS 4 and a shooting attack which is S5 and poisoned doing D3 wounds. ALL it's attacks (shooting and combat) are Armour Piercing.

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Ripperdactyls

I dislike the models intensely and think the name sucks!

Just call then Terrodactyls

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Ancient Stegadon's Engine of the Gods

Can choose each phase one of the following abilities.

1 - 5+ Ward save to all units within 12 inches

2 - + 1 to CAST all spells from chosen lore (including high magic?)

3 - Bound spell (power level 6) Hits all ALL enemy units within 6 inches. D6+1 S5 flaming. Can be cast in combat (or if not in combat make 8 inch range)







just my ideas, feel free to criticize


Oh, also drop carnosaur points cost. They just die too fast. And for the love of god make Mazdamundi worhtwhile. And Kroq Gar hand of the gods not a bound spell

 

[Caprasauridae]

Some nice ideas you got there, Tlaloc. I like the idea of Bastiladon being more cannon-proof. They could justify it by saying that it's scales naturally make the cannonballs bounce off harmlessly, like in the fortresses of the cannon age. Giving it both 2+ AS and T6 is quite powerful, it would increase the cost immensely, together with multi-wound proofing. I think the idea of the Solar Engine giving another +1 I when successfully cast is genius, though! Otherwise your versions of both machines seem quite weak... Especially the Swarm buffs really don't seem like they are worth it. I don't know. I'd rather have some cannonball protection and slightly increased price and would leave the engines the way they are.

By the way, I can already see Vampire and Tomb King players say "How can I get -1 attack against the Troglodon, my Skeletons don't even HAVE eyes..."

 

[Mr Phat]

dont take this the wrong way Tlaloc but most of that dosnt make sense to me.

why isn't Gok-ror immune to poison??

why would he be?

Roll a D6. The target unit takes
1- D6 S3 hits
2&3 - D6+1 S4 hits
4&5 - 2D6 S4 hits and the enemy unit has -1 WS and BS for their next turn
6 - 2D6 S5 hits and the enemy unit has -D3 WS and BS for their next turn
in addition when the solar engine is cast and not dispelled, lizardmen units within 6 inches gain a further +1 initiative for the turn.

putting this back in is just powering up the original idea...I tried to out-write the randomness I felt ruined its
use. I can see its okay for 1PD use but if im investing in a boundspell for more than that I want to be able to calculate the result..not a "roll to see if you cast it. roll to see what effect it has. roll to see how strong that effect is".
Its unreliable.

The Bastiladon's thick, stone-like hide makes it extremely difficult to kill outright. Hits that do multiple wounds have their results halved and heroic killing blow is negated on a roll of 4+

Dont you see what you are doing? this is pure arms-race. "Cannons? make cannons not work"..next it will be a writer that makes "cannons that work against units that make cannons not work". Halving multiple wounds seems way to much as a "patch this problem" workout, and is hard to justify fluffwise, as its the bastiladons scales that are the hard part, not its flesh...which is hit since its wounded.

Remember its a generic 150pts monster you are designing, not a special character.

- The skink has a debuffing flower but throws it when he charges (has to roll to hit) and it doesn't affect lizardmen

I like the idea of throwing it at charge, but should also be a charge reaction to make sense. That it dosnt work against lizardmen makes no sense to me, why wouldnt it? also seems like a "lets patch that problem" move.

Im gonna go with the "models in base contact" option.

- The creature has BS 4 and a shooting attack which is S5 and poisoned doing D3 wounds. ALL it's attacks (shooting and combat) are Armour Piercing.
[/quote

Armour piercing? why? ..feels a little like a "it just needs to be better" fill in.