8th Ed. Neutrel no more.

[Lolgamer]

I hope that this is the right section, if not, I aploagise.

Now, in 8th edition we all know lizardmen are now good, I strongly disagree with this, I think they should have remained neutrel

THink about it, if the lizardmen found a plaque telling them to go destroy all other races, they would do it, if they found constelations telling them to side with chaos, they would do it, they are single minded, and aren't nececarily good.

The two biggest lizrdmen enemies are skaven and daemons, but just because their main foes are evil, doesn't necesarily make them good.

Does anybody else agree with me on this?

 

[novatomato]

Lizardmen most definitely serve the forces of good more so than they do evil.
For starters they would never find a plaque telling them to serve Chaos as the Lizardmen are the srevants of the Old Ones who were battling chaos. It just wouldn't add up unless the whole of the Lizardmen Fluff was rewritten.
As for being neutral, they will certainly go about destroying the other good races if said races are standing in the way of the Old Ones plans, however since all the good races were also made by the Old Ones they have a purpose that they need to fulfill and as such the Lizardmen won't destroy them completely.
Should they have to go to war against them it would be to prevent a larger tragedy from befalling the world and never for a selfish reason.

 

[walach]

yeah they probably lie somewhere between good and neutral. i think you can justify either of them from a fluff point of view.

 

[venom_x51]

Lizardmen's actions definitely can't be taken as "Good". They're fundamentalists; giving their lives for whatever means have been derived from misguided translations of millenia old, partially destroyed text without question.

You can't reason with fundamentalists; If they believe that they must wipe something out utterly, they will do it for no other reason than it was translated from a plaque found in an abandoned temple and they believe it to be the will of the old ones.

They're frankly a whole level more scary than evil...

 

[rammramm]

Lizardmen's actions definitely can't be taken as "Good". They're fundamentalists; giving their lives for whatever means have been derived from misguided translations of millenia old, partially destroyed text without question.

You can't reason with fundamentalists; If they believe that they must wipe something out utterly, they will do it for no other reason than it was translated from a plaque found in an abandoned temple and they believe it to be the will of the old ones.

They're frankly a whole level more scary than evil...

I disagree.

Since they are to the best of their abilities (and their abilities are vast with the mind of the slanns being extremely impressive) to interpret the will of the gods (who are the ultimate good-guys and defenders/creators of order) from what these gods have written.

You miss the point where the plaques are not only prophesies but accuallly written down by the creators. Of course their interpretation is not allways correct but to say that someone who is dedicating their lives to restore order to the world is not good then I am not sure who would be. Elves, Dwarves and men have all slaughtered eachother for less noble purposes and are still clasified as "good".

 

[Guardian of Hexoatl]

I agree with both of you lol So should we say that since they are fundementalists that act out through the noble intentions of their masters without hesitation, they are in fact niether? Are they simply attonomous being serving a figurative Hive Mind (The will of the Old Ones)? They do have free will and are self aware which gives them the capacity to be good, but they are incapable of acting on these singular Moral beliefs do to there extremist views of the Old Ones Plan. Liken it to Muslim extremists. Do they have Morals? Yes. Do they Feel Remorse? Yes. Do they kill mindlessly without cause? No. They feel that no matter how they percieve the world, The must act upon the wil of there diety because such things are larger than there own irational morals. Just like lizardmen, They aren't evil becuase they have moral standards that dictate what's bad, however foreign it may be to us. They aren't good, because while they are just acting out the will of the ultimate good, they still partake in brutal slaughter to achieve it. And they aren't neutral because they are serving the old ones plan to restore order and piece to the world (Good). So I say they are simply Consentually Autonomous Hope you guys get what I mean lol

 

[TheRolfgar]

Going by D&D thinking about good/evil, law/chaos, I would consider the Lizardmen Lawful Neutral. They abide by their own laws and beliefs to the letter, but they do not actively go out destroying evil or trying to do harm.In fact they tend to attack anyone who enters their domain.

From a fluff standpoint I think they would still never side with chaos, there is no "great good" reason for it. They would however side with someone not of chaos to help fight it (if it still served their own purposes).

 

[vict0988]

i dont relly know cause its probably most for terrain purpose and i think that is good cause they are against evil and it would be a drawback if they had all the drawbacks and no good stuff forom bieng good??
and i agree with Guardian of Hexoatl

 

[rammramm]

How I knew that someone would bring in muslims the moment I read the word extremist .

"They aren't good, because while they are just acting out the will of the ultimate good, they still partake in brutal slaughter to achieve it"
You cant put any value in this statement as I said before since there is not a single race in the warhammer world that does not partake in brutal slaughter from time to time.

The lizardmen are the defenders of order and the sworn enemy of chaos (in this world Chaos represents everything that is bad in the world) and are therefor "good". Does this mean they will recieve a peace-price anytime soon? No. However it does mean that like the other "good" armies and nations of the world they fight chaos. They dont do it for their own survival like the other races (instead they do it for the very sake of defeating chaos which could be seen as a more honorable motive than the wars fought out of survival instinct) but this doesnt make them neutral.

They fight for order. They fight against chaos in all forms. They do nothing for themselves and instead do everything to further the influence of order in the world and selflessly secrifise themselves in order to protect the old ones plans (which in many cases saves the younger races from extinction).

In my book they are the ultimate good-guys even if they sometimes seem a litle excentric.

 

[novatomato]

And right there rammramm has put an end to any debate there may have been.

 

[Chahlie]

I would say that lizardmen are not good guys, but are even less bad guys, so "good" is the best place to put them.

 

[slann-ovk]

I would have to say Neutrel, to bring the world to what it was before Chaos might mean killing all races.
Or just a few, its a point of view!!!

To Lizardmen all good

To Skaven all evil

empire depends? good only when it goes there way lol

 

[Chahlie]

I just realized something, Lizardmen are the only race who don't have an "evil" type:
Wood/High Elves -> Dark Elves
Brettonia/Empire -> Chaos Warriors
Dwarves -> Chaos Dwarves
So I guess lizardmen are the most good.

 

[kroxigor01]

I Dwarfs and Elves can be trusted allies, like hell Lizardmen can't also be trusted allies.

I think this makes sense. If Lizardmen are completely goal based in their diplomacy as has been argued (ie - kill those Looters/Chaos, not "we don't like them" like most of the Mainland races' wars) then they would either be your enemy or completely allied. This is reflected in the rules.

 

[Kadzik]

For me it's only for alliance purposes. For Empire Lizardmen can be trusted in the same amount od distrust as Elves. It's only that they fight against Chaos. Human, Elves or Dwarves could be evil, but c'mon! It's fantasy wargame, not f.e. World of Darknes RPG where you fight with inner beast to escape eternal damnation

We cannot treat this "good" as character or nature of lizard folk. If we follow D&D (which is stupid for me) LM should be lawful (exteremely)neutral, cause follow orders, but don't have any morality. They base on their instinct and don;t have any sense of distinction between good and evil. Yes, Chaos for them is evil, but in different (not moral or phylosophical) way.

 

[giant stegadon]

Just because someone kills someone else doesn't mean that its an evil act. The Lizardmen are just operating with a much longer view of time than other races. Calling them 'fundamentalists' doesn't fit. Its easy to wrap it up in a neat little package that way, but its missing the point pretty badly.

The Lizardmens biggest crime is that they dont communicate with the other good guys.

Its also important to remember the difference between Mazmudi & the Lizardmen as a whole.

Additionally, in defense of Maz, I think the point of keeping the younger races where they started out is that it seems like the more sentient things that are running around on the planet, the stronger chaos can become.

 

[Kar Gor]

Just to point out unless im mistaken its called forces of order and forces of destruction
Chaos strives in one way or another for destruction, whether by infecting warping tempting or sluaghtering. Dark elves are hell bent on destruction of the lesser races. skaven are the same and vampire counts are hardly man's best friend.
The forces of order on the otherhand strive for balance and creation, empire want to defend and expand above all else, there methords may be unorthadox but rarley hell raising destruction.
Elves and dwarfs want to rebuild there civilization and the lizards are the same. The rebuilding andresummoining of the old ones is there num 1 priority
as such they are order as that is what they strive for.
Ogers are a mercinary army (as are tombkings?) my personal belife is tombkings should be evil but thats a discussion for another page

 

[n810]

From the poin of view of Lizardmen,
all races created by the Old Ones are
alies and on the side of good and
all races created by Chaos are to be exterminated
for the will of the Old Ones, also all
beings interfering or trespassing in Lizadmen
teratory will be dealt with harshly.

 

[strewart]

I Dwarfs and Elves can be trusted allies, like hell Lizardmen can't also be trusted allies.

Don't listen to GW fluff..... In the blog this week, they claimed Eldar and Dark Eldar would happily fight together in the right circumstances because 'they are the same race afterall'. The fact they are hated foes means nothing apparently.

I definitely see LM as more neutral than anything, in general we don't even stray far from Lustria, just stay at home and defend. In the same way I probably see TK as neutral rather than really evil, though they do attack sometimes.

@Chahlie; Ogres don't have good and evil. Neither do orcs.

 

[HoverBoy]

I think you guys have it wrong it's not good and evil, its order and destruction. With that reclasiffication it makes perfect sense that lizardmen, the race that lives to complete a great plan, is classed as order. Oh and Orcs are pretty destuctive don't you agree