8th Ed. Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences etc

[Pinktaco]

So I figured it would be interesting to talk about this.

Usually when we talk about going with the Slann it's also about picking various disciplines, a BSB and some might even put a weapon or arcane item on him. Just going with high magic and the +2 channel dice and +5 to channel staff he'll come at 380pts. Add the BSB with discipline banner and we're already over 400pts and could still go with another discipline such as soul of stone, becalming cogitation or reservoir of eldritch energy. That would put him well over 400pts.

IMO all of this isn't THAT necessary. In my last game I went with Wandering Deliberation and put him in a unit of skinks. For the remaining points I were able to get an oldblood with the steg helmet, dawnstone, crown of command and a GW.

If I didn't want WD or High Magic I could just as well get one of the regular lores and be just as happy.

I just wonder if we've become too used of a pimped out party frog? I nearly NEVER see anyone go with a completely naked Slann and I wonder why?

For 300pts we get:

- A Slann that can freely choose between the 8 lores.
- Comes with wizard level 4.
- 5 Wounds.
- A 4+ wardsave.
- The option to stay in the second rank of Temple Guards.
- Give the Temple Guards Stubborn.
- Cast spell through a Skink Priest despite being in combat.
- Swap spells between another Slann.

I don't know about you, but that's a lot of stuff for the 100pts more we pay compared to a level 4 Empire Wizard.

Even IF you go with just one, maybe two, disciplines (and nothing else) you can easily fit in an oldblood at 2500pts.

So anyway, I'd like to know what you think on the matter?

 

[Lizardmatt]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

I've noticed a few things.
I roll really poorly in the magic phase. I never get the awesome magic phases my opponents seem to get.

I'm starting to lean more and more towards 350.
Slaan, BSB, dispel scroll.

If I want to go magic heavy, I'll take power scroll, lore master high magic. (370)


I keep taking the triple 5+ channel, because it "Should" be about 1 die per phase. Funny thing is, I never get 2 dice, and half the time get none. I'm just really unlucky with the channel slaan.
On the flip side, I roll stupidly well with my razordons, which what I'm failing to buff due to lack of power dice.
So, I guess it all averages out for me.

-Matt

 

[Eladimir]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

I agree, my magic phase have been very lackluster. Its basically working out as everyone elses lvl 4 is. I get one spell through (usually not the one I want unless I 6 dice it) and any time I miscast I'm risking the game and half my best unit.

I'm seriously thinking of yeah, keeping him low low low. And maybe even moving the BSB to a scarvet on the other side of my army. LD 10 coldblooded is plenty fine for one 12inch bubble and LD 6-8 coldblooded with reroll should be good for the rest.

 

[olderplayer]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

The initial point is correct. You get 5 wounds, lvl 4, T4, a 4+ ward save, and make a unit stubborn, ITP and can hide the model in the second rank and get an automatic look out sir in a TG unit in the base cost. It is common to play a lvl 4 with only a ward save in order to allow for a fighting lord. The weakness of the Slann is its inability to fight.
A Slann with soul of stone (reduces miscast risk) and wandering deliberations or beclaming is quite effective and not too expensive. The scroll on a skink priest is probably a better option in order to save points.

Some people have been playing with stripped donw Slanns in order to make room for a more fully kitted old-blood at 2500, which is the standard army size in our region. Take something like armour of destiny for +2 AS and 4+ ward and dawnstone, shield, and a sword of might for a max oldblood and you have a very effective fighting lord. Alterenatively, crown of command with luckstone on the old blood saves dawnstone for a scar vet and allows the old blood to take on something tough with a unit of say saurus. Other trickster's shard is another popular item on the oldblood. Some like to trade off the shield for a great weapon (since the oldblood has I3 anyway) to cut through armour and increase the wound rate.

 

[tor]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

Last tournament I caskaded my Slann on the second spell with 3 dice against Vampires, I never leave home without Earthing rod anymore. So with Wandering, Earthing Rod and SoS you still have points for a fully tooled Oldblood.
I have made my Oldblood a challengemonster with; Armour of destiny, dawnstone, pot of strength, warriors bane and a shield.
Total 621 points.

 

[Eladimir]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

Is it really worth the addition of an oldblood over a scarvet? For 60 more points all you gain is a wound and an attack

 

[RipperDerek]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

I've had lots of success recently with a battle Slann. Ethereal Slann BSB with War Banner & Dragonbane Gem; season to taste. He can't be killed by artillery (even magical artillery), and he dominates a lot of units that otherwise give us trouble.

• 
  - Steam tank giving you trouble? Charge it with the Slann, and its stuck for the rest of the game.
  - Horde of trolls? Kill a few models with spells or shooting, then get the Slann into combat. You have a BSB and War Banner, they have 1 rank. They lose combat every round until they break.
  - Monstrous cavalry? Get the Slann into combat. They have a banner, you have BSB and a War Banner. They lose combat by 1 every round until they break.
  - Monsters? Get the slann into combat. They lose combat by 2 every round until they break.
  - Etc.!

In a pinch, he can even hold up slightly-tattered blocks of infantry. As long as he's only taking 1 wound per round, he can heal himself with Apotheosis or Earthblood. Eventually, you'll be able to get another unit to charge into their flank and turn the tables.

Also, naked or not, I'm pretty well convinced putting him in temple guard is a mistake - LD 9/10 coldblooded with a reroll is already basically stubborn. All you're doing by putting him in is robbing yourself of attacks and creating extra casualties when you miscast, plus losing 50% more points when the unit gets beaten by something.

 

[Sleboda]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

Last tournament I caskaded my Slann on the second spell with 3 dice against Vampires, I never leave home without Earthing rod anymore. So with Wandering, Earthing Rod and SoS you still have points for a fully tooled Oldblood.
I have made my Oldblood a challengemonster with; Armour of destiny, dawnstone, pot of strength, warriors bane and a shield.
Total 621 points.

=> Interesting few things there.

1) When the TK book came out, that community, including myself, immediately went "Earthing Rod!!!! Gotta have!!!!" Then games got played and folks realized that since being able to cast spells in a TK army is so insanely vital, it didn't make much difference if you lost the wizard or just lost several spells - either way he was not helping anymore. So, several of us gave up on the Rod.

Now, here I am with Lizardmen and I've decided to play without a Slann for the time being, but your post makes them much more appealing. Having the Rod AND the ability to shift the numbers....hmmm...do you find it helps enough to justify the cost?

2) Potion of Strength on Oldblood. Since you must declare the use of Potions at the start of the turn (not the start of the phase, or after moving, or any other time), I've found that people tend to not be caught by it. Sure there may be times when you can force an opponent into a bad spot with it (your turn, vs Warriors so you can drink the potion, make the charge, and get into a challenge), but I find that more often than not the potion's effects don't come into play - especially when I use it on my turn and then fail the charge!

What has your experience been? Do you have (as so many do) forgiving opponents who let you use the potion sort of after the fact, when it's supposedly too late? How are you making it work for you?

 

[lifeasalizard]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

Is it really worth the addition of an oldblood over a scarvet? For 60 more points all you gain is a wound and an attack

You gain weapon skill, armor save, wound and attack. Individually not impressive, but when combined they equal more than the sum of their parts.

 

[Pofadder]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

The extra 50 points worth of kit you can buy for him is the clincher Because you can build him very tanky or efficiently punchy with the extra 50 points. How many times have I wished I could have a couple of more points magic allowance for my scar-vets...

 

[olderplayer]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

The extra wound and extra attack are almost worth the extra cost of the Oldblood but that gets magnified when you add the ward save and extra magic points. With the scar vet and the oldblood often hitting last or latte, survivability is essential to ensure the ability to even get the hits in. A 4+ ward save is worth a lot more in effective points on an oldblood than on a scar vet. Run a fully kitted scar vet against a fully kitted oldblood and then each against other typical opposing models and figure out point of wounds caused as ciompared with points of wounds suffered on average and you will see the difference in value.

 

[Xlanax_lot]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

I agree, my magic phase have been very lackluster. Its basically working out as everyone elses lvl 4 is. I get one spell through (usually not the one I want unless I 6 dice it) and any time I miscast I'm risking the game and half my best unit.

I'm seriously thinking of yeah, keeping him low low low. And maybe even moving the BSB to a scarvet on the other side of my army. LD 10 coldblooded is plenty fine for one 12inch bubble and LD 6-8 coldblooded with reroll should be good for the rest.

I agree, with the new book is not easy to have the dominance in the magic phases that we used to have before the new book.

To overcome this what I usually do is take a slan with loremaster high and forviden road, this will give you control of a turns magic, also take to skink priest with dispell scroll and cube of darkness to eliminate 2 of your oponents magic phases, and finally if you are able to get fiery convocation into a horde and than change it for a lore of death spell, your opponent wount only have to spend his powrr dice dispeling it on his turn but you also get the ability to gain extra power dice from the death lore atribute.

This has worked really well for me, and I have to say the more i play with high magic the more I realize how powerfull its atrubute is, is not as straigth forward as the high elf one but it surely is devastating

 

[tor]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

Sleboda said: "Now, here I am with Lizardmen and I've decided to play without a Slann for the time being, but your post makes them much more appealing. Having the Rod AND the ability to shift the numbers....hmmm...do you find it helps enough to justify the cost?

What has your experience been? Do you have (as so many do) forgiving opponents who let you use the potion sort of after the fact, when it's supposedly too late? How are you making it work for you?"

To be honest including the Slann Is foremost because of that he´s sort of so iconic, likewise when playing Daemons I always played include a greater Daemon, It´s not just the same without. In my area (mostly ETC style comp, I know your stance on that question so let´s not get dragged into that the guy with the most success have played a Slann-less list with a Coldone Deathstar.
Now to your questions, IMO Soul of stone Is for saving Tombguards so my preferred result Is 8-9 and Earthing rod Is only for Cascade. So have It worked? I have only played 10 games with Lizardmen and tried out different lists and my succesrate have been pretty low so far (50%)
Pot of strength, we absolutely not let people use It after It´s to late so I mostly use It the second round of combat or If I have a certain charge. Is It optimal? Not sure...

 

[Sleboda]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

... if you are able to get fiery convocation into a horde and than change it for a lore of death spell, your opponent wount only have to spend his powrr dice dispeling it on his turn but you also get the ability to gain extra power dice from the death lore atribute.

=> Just checking - You are not saying you get extra dice from the Death Attribute when wounds are caused on Convocation, right?


@tor - Thanks.

 

[Xlanax_lot]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

=> Just checking - You are not saying you get extra dice from the Death Attribute when wounds are caused on Convocation, right?


@tor - Thanks.

No, for the death atribute to work you have to cause wounds using death magic, in adition you can only used a spell that you changed in the next magic phase (meaning not in the same turn you decided to change your spell).

How ever I have found that with a leadership 9 slan, you can roll for spell on deth to get either purple sun or fathe of bjuna, and if you dont get those change it for spirit leach, than chosse a suitable target using your skinks priests to extend your range and this will give you on average 1 or 2 dices per magic phase.

What I like most about this built is that at 2500 pts I still have my oldblood on cold one with dawnstone armor of destiny and great weapon

 

[Eladimir]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

I actually think the earthing rod is better. Bad results for the Slann and TG are anything from 1-7. 8-9 is mages take S6 Hit and lose die, 10-12 Lose wizard levels.

Everything else below that either is large template small template or everything in base contact. So the adjust by +/- isn't that great. Good on a 4 (to avoid sucked into warp) and on a seven (to get to an 8)

So Rod is way better imho but that arcane slot is a mighty important one.

 

[Sleboda]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

@Xlanax_lot

=> Yep. Thanks. I just wanted to be sure you were not livin' the dream only to have to wake up.

 

[Xlanax_lot]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

@Xlanax_lot

=> Yep. Thanks. I just wanted to be sure you were not livin' the dream only to have to wake up.

Haha definatelly, it would be a dream if you could do something like that.

Looking it from another perspective, if I am not taking a slann I would definatelly take tetto eko! He is awesome! I gess the real problem about how expesive our frogs are is that they are the only way we can get level 4 and not having a level 4 is definately a big disadvantage.

Because of this I have even tryird tehenehuin ( lever 3 beasts), he is an expensive level 3 but at leadt he has the better stats than an elf archmage, i really dont know it he is worth it but since he is the only caster level 3 in our army and with beasts i havent discarted him yet, what do u guys think ?

 

[Spiney Norman]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

I've played my Slann a couple of different ways, either completely naked (usually lore of metal or heavens), or wandering deliberations. A wandering Slann can realistically cast any of his spells on 2 dice, which reduced the risk of miscast.

If I have spare points to throw around I'll add the channeling staff and the extra channeling dice discipline, I never give my Slann the BSB, if I take one at all it goes on a Saurus.

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: Naked/almost naked Slann viable? - opinions, experiences

I've noticed a few things.
I roll really poorly in the magic phase. I never get the awesome magic phases my opponents seem to get.

I'm starting to lean more and more towards 350.
Slaan, BSB, dispel scroll.

If I want to go magic heavy, I'll take power scroll, lore master high magic. (370)


I keep taking the triple 5+ channel, because it "Should" be about 1 die per phase. Funny thing is, I never get 2 dice, and half the time get none. I'm just really unlucky with the channel slaan.
On the flip side, I roll stupidly well with my razordons, which what I'm failing to buff due to lack of power dice.
So, I guess it all averages out for me.

-Matt

You and me bro, we're alike. In theory my slann (when equipped right) should dominate those I play against (skaven, empire and britonnia), but alas he tends to fail whenever he gets the chance to do it. Yesterday I rolled 2 x 6 in the very first wind of magic. I wanted to 6-dice a boosted searing doom into my friends IC Knight unit (10 + WP), but no, he obviously failed and was unable to do jackshit for the rest of that turn.

My poor skink priest could only cast Wyssans Wildform and my bastiladon wasn't in range to put the hurt on my opponent.

That's just my typical magic phase. I was, however, lucky to get a wyssans wildform off on my Tempelguards + scar vet who were carrying the skavenpelt banner. Suddenly those S5 attacks became S6 on hit steam tank and great swords.

Anyway just as you I'm not too fond of a pimped out Slann. It's the eggs in the basket syndrom all over just with the exception that magic is even more unstable than most other things in this game.

A "cheap" slann + tricked out Oldblood will be my go to setup from here on out.