8th Ed. More Gears Grinded: DE Cold Ones

[Mr Phat]

So...
same price...
same armour ..
also placed in special
but with lances for free
They may take a magic banner
Their champ may also take magic weapons.


The Cold-one War, not ended it has

 

[Pinktaco]

I would like to agree, but I suppose it has something to do with internal balance?

 

[Man0waR]

Also they roll Stupidity test with 2D6.
Common Knights I think they have only 1 Attack.

The only thing that makes me mad is the models !!!! Why they have raptors and we instead have !"$!$!"·%%!"!

Our cold one Riders are fine, just we have other toys to play with.
Last game played against Skaven and set a 8 naked COR bus with Scarvet + Oldblood.
This unit took out 3 infantrys of 40 models during the whole battle.

So its situational our COR are made to clear chaff or grind average infantry. And they are Excellent doing it.

 

[Axolotyl]

So...
same price...
same armour ..
also placed in special
but with lances for free
They may take a magic banner
Their champ may also take magic weapons.


The Cold-one War, not ended it has

Lower toughness, lower strength, higher chance to break, pansy elves..... They also don't have predatory fighter

I realise comparable strength if they charge, IF and only in first round!

Lizards, they are not, emo elves, they are!

 

[RipperDerek]

Um, DE cold one knights are WAY better than lizard COR.

They're S4, with automatic lances for free, meaning they hit at S6 (two higher than us). They have I6 and ASF, so they always attack first and reroll their misses. They also reroll 1s to wound, and they wound everything on 1s because of S6. They average more wounds than COR do, they're better against armor and high toughness than COR are, and they get to go first so they don't die before making their attacks. Plus, they can take magic banners and weapons!

Predatory Fighter is a drawback, not an advantage. The only thing our COR have over them is that they're coldblooded, and even that is mitigated by the fact that the DE version have higher leadership anyways.

 

[Mr Phat]

thank you Derek.

 

[hardyworld]

I concur, mostly with RipperDerek. LM COR also have 1 more rider attack, but considering the DE rider's ability to wound is generally better than ours, that doesn't really matter. I think the DE ones are appropriately priced (and ours would be too if they came with spears and could take magic banners like they always had before). While we are comparing apples-to-apples here, we have to remember that the LM army is a lot different than the DE army, which matters a lot on how 'appropriate point costs' should be determined; battlefield performance may not match toe-to-toe with the appropriate cost across armies.

 

[n810]

To be fair, they should have let us keep our magic standard bearer, and a magic weapon for the champ would have been great.

 

[Lizardmatt]

To be fair, they should have let us keep our magic standard bearer, and a magic weapon for the champ would have been great.

Losing the magic banner is what I hate. They would be awesome with a razorbanner, as it would go a long way to making S4 good.

-Matt

 

[Eladimir]

The ASF is also huge to in reflection to one of the worst parts of the COR. Init 2, Randomly losing 1-2 COR models before you even get to strike take a huge amount of the punch out.

I'd say they're certianly better for the costs. And my god the cold one models are better.

 

[JuQ]

Do you guys realy give magic weapons to your champions when you have the chance?
IMO they usually don't worth the points even if you give them to a character with better stats. Mundane equipment FTW!

I don't understand why they removed the option of magic standard to COR.

 

[Pofadder]

I agree it does not make sense at all...no magic banner. As mentioned a razor banner, war banner etc all would have been good contenders on CoR. But Vetock thought it wise that we may only have a magic banner on one unit in the entire army...Temple Guard

CoR still have a place in my army despite the fact that I fail stupidity more regularly than the maths would predict

Like many units in LM at the moment it is not bad, just not great either. LM suffers a fat dose of mediocrity in many of the units that we would like to fill our lists out with.

But we work with tools given and win because we are awesome

 

[sirkently]

I used to run the unit with the gleaming pendant. Made failing a stupidity test very rare.

 

[olderplayer]

Cold One Knights: +1WS, +4I and ASF, -1 rider Attack, -1T, have murderous prowess on rider (better chance of wounding), come with lance as opposed to Cold one rdiers havng to pay for spears, have option for magic bannner as opposed to none for Cold One Riders, LD8 on cold one riders is superior to LD9 on cold one knights.

Interestingly, they actually made Cold One Knights more expensive in the new DE army book due to additional mount attack, ASF, and murderous prowess on rider, while they cut the cost of cold one riders (not a lot with spear option) in the new Lizardmen book.

Given that cold one riders are basically temple guard on cold ones, I do not understand the failure to allow a magic banner on the unit. Also, it would have made sense to give spears for free. IF those two changes were made one could argue that both units are attractively priced. IMO, +1T is pretty significant and +1 attack is under-rated relative to 1 attack with ASF and murderous prowess on rider in CoK unit. Against T3, WS3, the cold one rider on top will average .89 wounds and the CoK rider will average .69 wounds. Against T4, the Cok rider does 0.52 wounds to 0.67 wounds by the CoR rider. Similarly, absent a charge, against S3 models, the Cold one knight will take .5 wounds of which only .083 wounds will be unsaved and a cold one will take .056 unsaved wounds. Against S4, a Cok will suffer 0.22 unsaved wounds which a COR will suffer .167 unsaved wounds.

The offsetting point is that the CoK rider will often strike first while the CoR will most often strike last and the difference on the charge favors the CoK if the unit gets the charge off due to the lance.

 

[Mr Phat]

+1T is pretty significant and +1 attack is under-rated relative to 1 attack with ASF and murderous prowess

The extra toughness is about the only thing I see where our CoC beats CoK (oh god we need some better abbreviations for this)

Where we have 2 attacks we also have two attacks less likely to do anything due to ws and no re-rolls, so I think they tie pretty even.

 

[Spiney Norman]

Um, DE cold one knights are WAY better than lizard COR.

They're S4, with automatic lances for free, meaning they hit at S6 (two higher than us). They have I6 and ASF, so they always attack first and reroll their misses. They also reroll 1s to wound, and they wound everything on 1s because of S6. They average more wounds than COR do, they're better against armor and high toughness than COR are, and they get to go first so they don't die before making their attacks. Plus, they can take magic banners and weapons!

Predatory Fighter is a drawback, not an advantage. The only thing our COR have over them is that they're coldblooded, and even that is mitigated by the fact that the DE version have higher leadership anyways.

No predatory fighter is a special rule, like many special rules in warhammer it has both an benefit and a draw back, and how well it works for you depends on how well you take advantage of its benefits and how you manage its draw-backs. In the case of cold one cavalry it is likely that you are going to want to pursue in most cases anyway.

I would like to agree, but I suppose it has something to do with internal balance?

I would agree with that too, cold one knights are the only unit in the DE book with better than 4+ AS, they are far and away the most resilient thing in the list. Good armour saves and T4 are commonplace in our book so its not totally unreasonable that we pay more for that.

Conversely the playstyle of Lizardmen is largely based around blocks of M4 infantry and comparatively slow moving monsters so a fast moving cavalry unit is a valuable tactical asset, whereas CoKs are comparatively slow moving in a book which has M9 units in every slot.

 

[teufelhund]

I played Bretonnians all last year so I've pretty much tried every way to use calvary and all I've come up with for these guys is filler for a character bus on cold ones. More likely since I would probably run slaan and not have a lot of points for other characters; as bait.

They can move faster and threaten which makes them a good target to attract shooting or divert other enemy units. They are overpriced and not that great which makes them appear even juicier. So they're good to lead slower units (Hopefully more expensive) on a wild goose chase away from the game if he fails redirects after flees or just to chaff up and slow down his prized units. If they can just be a distraction for a few turns they've done all I could expect of them.

If they get ignored and make it to some war machines good for them, but I think flying units would be better equipped for that for just a few points more; or even less since they do not need to be a unit of 5+

I'd leave them at home.

 

[Andy06r]

I'm going the echo the post a few above mine. We are paying for M7 steadfast in an army book that is relatively slow. Their attack profile encourages one rank and they are good at running down units and killing chaff/stragglers. Need to kill the unit to win the points, and pursuing with M4 infantry isn't a successful strategy.

5-6 guys with banner and musician is a reasonable price and spears won't break the bank if you want to run over a chariot or something.

 

[GCPD]

Cold One Knights are very, very good. They were pretty good in the last edition, but so much better now. My MSU Dark Elf army has two units of 5 with Standards (most resilient unit) and Champions (6 attacks is much better than 5). Brilliant at 170 points each, Stupidity and all.

Unlike Cold One Riders, they aren't just good on their own but serve very clear purposes in the book. They are the only way of delivering reliable S6, for instance (Executioners and Kharibdyss are both at the mercy of fluffy dice syndrome). They are good at augmenting an infantry line or keeping up with a fast moving Dark Rider/Warlock force, and working in various sizes from minimum right up to 10+.

 

[hilburn]

One thing that is to our advantage at least, we get 8 COR per box whereas the elves only get 5, unfortunately if you want to give all your COR some pretty remounts you will almost definitely have some left over which always vexes me. However... cowboys