7th Ed. Mittens, Chess, and Kroxigors

[DonkeyHotep]

Soak it in, because that is the entire premise of this next tactica, which is formation tactics and darned if you do situations. This specific chess conundrum was chosen because unlike, for example two rooks on the opposite sides of the board on the same line, it makes use of a unit that moves kinda slowly, I.E. the knight, and the knight tends to operate more like a unit in warhammer anyway. (that or pawns, but march of the pawns might be silly in warhammer)

The idea is that you can maximize the effectiveness of your units by changing the size of the units, if you intend to run 50 saurus in an army, you might first think of going 15-15-20, but you can accomplish much more by going 20-20-10. Most people seem to think that just running forward is the way to go, or to just hang back and let them come forward, but these linear tactics are extremely simple, and frankly, the work of a tactician that hasn't got any better plans. Consider:




It's a mitten, and it gets the point across, the reason that we have thumbs is because they are good, you can have a large number of forces (fingers) supported by a relatively smaller mass (thumb). The effect is much greater then just folding the mass of the thumb into the main line (fist). Here's an example.



Assume those other guys are something like, I dunno, grave guard, or skeletons with a vampire, whatever, go nuts. You can not effectively advance on him in this formation, but it's a daunting roadblock for him. If he charges the saurus, he exposes his flank to the cavalry, if he charges the cavalry, you can flee and he'll expose his flank to the saurus. This formation is very strong defensively, but lack any real answer to the standoff. The mitten is the default defensive formation, but here is another.



Assume that the mounted character is some kind of wizard. This tactic can be used offensively, but is also highly effective on the defense. Moving the kroxigor to that location (or even arguably leaving one skink to the right available) means that he can direct attacks at the wizard, and even a modest amount of luck can crush the wizard into a bloody pulp, even T4 isn't a good defense against kroxigor smash. This almost forces your opponent to shoot at the skink unit because.... he can't see anything else, and if he charges, his wizard will die maybe a third to a quarter of the time, and the unit might even hold and punch the wizard later, and they could even flee the charge and bring the skeletons into something else etc. etc. The thing is, if this was just a unit of skinks, he could just ignore them or charge with impunity, but even a vampire wizard has a hard time beating a kroxigor one on one, and others aren't gonna do a darn thing. This move can effectively delay the enemy long enough for something better to do the job, or even let you get the charge later and just attack his wizard anyway, suicidal kroxigor are a very helpful deterrent to enemy wizards being alive.




This really shows off the reason why the mitten works, because neither of these units is really very powerful, but they can totally hold off these skeletons, or orks or something, go nuts. The big thing here is that the wizard is in danger if he does anything but retreat, because the kroxigor unit is in his flank (yes, at that angle right there, with a line diagonally through, they are flanked, and these are to scale) You can even retreat the saurus if you are worried about the unit, but the flank charging skinkxigor unit can conceivably win that fight, since they are up on CR by 2 and krox will likely smash some of whatever he hits. The thing is, rather then coughing up for a unit of 20 saurus, you can just get both of these units, and it will do just as well against this enemy, while being far less vulnerable to devastating units like blood knights, who are far more likely to be beaten by the kroxigor flank attack then to be beaten by a saurus anvil. What do you do if holding won't do anything? Consider:



This is a great method of defeating a hero that can actually fight, like, some sort of vampire knight hanging out with skeletons. This formation may seem weak, but is actually quite strong for some beardy reasons. If they charge the skirmishers, the closest unit is at an off angle from the center of the formation, and when they fight, they will turn towards it, exposing the flank to the kroxigor. If it flees, then you have the same benefit, as they must wheel towards the unit they are pursuing, and by then they will be shit out of luck on wheeling to hit the kroxigor unit since you only get one wheel during a charge, and you must attempt to catch the unit you are charging.

Here's the better part, if they charge the kroxigor unit, then hold. They might even be able to do it, but they must attempt to get as many units into combat as possible, which will likely include clipping the far right side of your unit with maybe one skeleton/orc/whatever, leaving them with one man swinging, and you with one plus kroxigor, which is a good way to eak out a tie or even a narrow win if kroxigor smashes a lot. Even better, it ties the enemy hero up until help arrives, and some mid ground cavalry or a stegadon or something can support this formation from very far away.

 

[snowywlf]

Great post Donkey. The use of diagrams really helps bring home how to position the units for maximum control. This is an excellent start for a possible Defense Tactica. I am already imagining some nice holding patterns like this with a Slann blasting away and the enemy being forced into your 'mitten' structure for cleanup.

 

[Barotok]

I can also applaud the work here. In relation to the "The battle is won or lost in the movement phase" thread this provides some excellent examples of how LM units work together effectively. It also exhibits the trick of using a single Kroxigor to provide that extra umph that a unit may be needing. I'd say that of all the skink cohort/kroxigor combos, small units with a single kroxigor seem more usefull than their larger counterparts to me. They maintain their relatively small and maneuverable size while giving a little extra hitting power without costing too many points. A pretty decent balance.

 

[strewart]

I agree, great post. Very informative and should give new players some good ideas. I will definitely add it to the index. Before I do though, is there any reason you put it in discussions rather than the tactics forum? I think it would be more suited there, and obviously the link would change if I moved it.

 

[DonkeyHotep]

I expect people to discuss it, none of this is set in stone really, the obvious problem is that these are very minute situations, none of these formations involve a battle line of mittens or countering multiple enemies, hence, people would expand on these ideas. Tactics sections seem to oddly enough include far more stategies then tactics.

 

[strewart]

Fair enough. Maybe as a result of discussions another thread can be made compiling it all and expanding on it?

It may not cover battle lines, but it is still important and useful pieces for people to know and it is hard to cover tactics for the entire army because everyone plays a different army. I think micro tactics like this is often more useful than trying to cover the whole army, plus a lot easier to write.

 

[Sammy the Squib]

Great stuff, thanks for posting!

Where did you get those model sprites from?

 

[rickie_82]

The mittens strategy is something I try to incorperate, not exactly how showed here (have made me start thinking). But I always try to gang up on my oponents units. Played DE in the begining of 6'th edition and those Dark Riders sure was handy. Also Have had a list of gobbos, where I usually have atleast 2x more units then my oponent, and with both those armies you had to make sure that single units dident have to fight alone.

With LM I see that I will have to change my ways some, we have no fast cavalry (I know teradons can fullfill that to a point), and no chariots (stegadons can but slower, and more expensive). And most probably I wont outnumber my oponents since LM is a decently costly army pointwise.

As I see it (and I might be blind and wrong) I usually wont be able to outspeed my opponents, outnumber them or outshoot them. I can see myself having a strong magic phase and a decent cc phase.

We have accses to an incredible anvil unit in the TG with a Slann, or a big block of saurus should still be good. And three choices for a hammer, Stegadon, CoC and Kroxigors.
Kroxigors seems expensive for what they do. CoC seems awesome for a really fair price, but are stupid. Cant really coment on the steg, seems to work like a slow and more expensive chariot thingie.

So the lack of fast cavalry is new to me, and we seem to have mediocry speed. So for me to win/compete in the moment phase I see the need of lots of rederictors and that mean skinks. I have yet to play a game with my LM so I have no idea for how many skinks I will need. If I take to many I wont have enough heavy hitters, if I take to few I wont get my heavy hitters in combat on my terms.

And now i notice I have rambled on, and also forgoten what I was talking about to begin with (rereads thread). Hmm after reading the thread again and what I have typed I just may delete it all ^^
But It's the tought that counts right?
I had one question that this thread raised for me. The mitten seems to be more of a defensive setup, what are some of the more offensive ones you typically use in a LM army? I always prefer to be on the offence, make my enymie react to me.

I also wanna thank DonkeyHotep, was a great read for me. Made me a bit happier ^^ Love the picture thinges makes it a lot easier to take in.
I know I'm not that knoledgebele and probably should stay clear of these kinda threads, but I love the sound of my own voice (and the clatter from my keyboard). Also I know my english sucks, sorry not a native talker

 

[DonkeyHotep]

Those sprites were made in MS Paint.

Actually, don't outright assume that lizardmen are going to be outnumbered by the enemy. We are not an inherently very expensive army, skinks of both kinds are fairly cheap. Further, skinks are EXTREMELY fast, fast enough to march on through a forest and taunt chariots, or tell fast cav to knock it off by sitting in a lake. The secondary point of this discussion was to try to bring to light the fact that we CAN outnumber our enemies, by using two abilities our army has.

1: Toad does everything and saves a ton of points on heroes. For like 400 points he does what 800 points of enemy heroes can do.

2: Medium units. 13 saurus deployed 6 wide with no command is a fantastically useful defensive unit, and can single handedly tell harassment units to imbibe stegadon fluids. Further, saurus are the most efficient method of rank denial and survivability you can get. (I did math on it earlier) Units of skinkigors are a whopping speed of 6 for infantry and can beat on things like goblins and detachments.

Essentially, every time you decide to by a scar veteran on a cold one with a 25 point magic item, ask yourself, would I rather have him, or the skinkigor unit? Him, or the 13 saurus? One game you'll just be saying, man, I wish I had something to hold that flank.

 

[strewart]

This brings up the interesting debate of how much points to spend on characters and how many characters to bring. Are you saying you run just a Slann as a single character in an army? That is a very interesting concept. I would find it hard to not at least give him a flying priest as support and for channeling, if not an engine, but it sounds like a pretty cool way to play the army. Really throw the concept of hero-hammer out the window and focus on manouvring and the army instead.

 

[rickie_82]

This post has been made by a guy that is out of cigarets, sitting at his comp in the middle of the night. Rambling, not making much sense and probably not sticking to what is being discused here in the first place. Read at own risk.

Ok reread whole thing. And I dont remeber now, but I think you mentioned MMU. That I'm guessing stands for "Multiple Medium Units" as oposed to the for me more familiar MSU "Multiple Small Units".

MSU is a tactic that was invented during Dark elves suck peroid before redo in 6'th. Atleast it was a huge subject for the DE comunity. The tought was to have many small elite units, blended with lots of speed and some cheap spearmen as screens/redirectors/bait.

Things have really started to roll in my head now. And I just smoked my last cigarret. So when I finish I will have gone completly mental.
I have been outa the loop since before WE came out, remeber thinking "now the cheap way for DR comes when I quit"

Since I have been drinking alot and not played any kind of games since then I have lost my touch, and I am relearning evrything. Tomorov I will check for your armylists DonkeyHotep.
MSU worked well for DE, and still would be a solid choice today I belive. When this idea was brought up on Druchii.net the only other army list that could use the idea to almost the same extent I belived was chaos mortals, but their soloution was a lot slower then DE.

If I get it right and that MMU stands for what I guessed, you are saying that this is viable with LM (ofcourse you are, why post it here otherwise ^^ ).
So for incorpering this idea to LM, Low costs on charecters. Like a Slann and EotG skink. Gives good magic offence and good defence. As you pointed out the slann would be a good investment for this. General ld9, BSB and a lv4 mage. The skink brings the magic home in your favour and gets a nice monster to sit on also. More charecters would mean less units and that is to avoid.

I could see using skrox instead of fast cavalry. Decently strong, cheap cr and above all else decently fast.

Small units of ordinary RnF skinks as Bait, screens, redirectors. Or if posible, harasers.

Skirmishing skinks can do all that their ranked up brothers can, but due to skirmishing are faster and better marsh blockers. Cant envison using any skink unit exept skrox as a flanker thou.

Saurus would make the Elite infantry. You mentioned the magic number 13 with these guys. Really want to see how you go about with these guys. Guesing no comand exept musican, and prolly not even spears, to keep em cheap.

As I said I have some trouble still to see the clear picture. But you have made my two braincells work overtime now. By making a fast check on army builder, 2k points. On just the posibilites, I get a slann, EotG, and 11 units. Counting 123 models in the army. So I can definetly see your point in utnumbering pepole now. The list I created here on the fly now, has no real heavy hiting thou. Will look in to this further tomorov.
Look forward for your continued writs.

 

[Barotok]

It was a while back, but I believe it was Donkey who presented this idea in a discussion in the LM Army List Forum. The list consisted of a single Slann character acting as general and BSB for the entire army. Now that I think about it, I think the concept was referred to as MMU (multiple medium units). I have been working on putting together a 2000 point list for permanent, take-all-comers list and am seriously considering this concept.

The point was made earlier to stop and ask yourself, if you'd rather have the sarus character or another unit of warriors with spears (etc). I'm not 100% convinced that this style of play pays for itself in every situation because there are merits to having characters in units to bolster their performances. However, I can think of a great many situations in which having that extra unit would be very handy. Still others, I'm sure I'd be snapping my fingers wishing I could somehow slide that extra scar vet into one of my units while my opponent was grabbing a soda from the fridge.

Also, I think Donkey mentioned this earlier, but it bears repeating. Not all lists have this luxury. We can get away with a single character without support because our caster lord (Slann), can dominate in the magic phase, carry the battle standard and act as a general. Frequently, in other lists, you can get two out of three (most of the time Lord level caster/general, but not BSB). Also, a good number of other lists really need the heros to help their weak and slow units perform or they simply are so powerful that the army's playstyle lends itself more to hero hammer than ours. Lizardmen have great units that can function without characters easily due to the cold blooded rule and a whole host of other factors. This just emphasizes the point that if you want to run low amounts of characters, you have a great list in which to do so.

While I'm not a 100% advocate of this concept all the time, in the smaller points value games that I tend to play, I've found it to be extremely effective. I've found that the smaller the points value, the less characters you want in the list to make it successfull. Overall, I know that my 'permanent' 2000pt list will not use all four character slots for sure.

 

[strewart]

While I'm not a 100% advocate of this concept all the time, in the smaller points value games that I tend to play, I've found it to be extremely effective. I've found that the smaller the points value, the less characters you want in the list to make it successfull. Overall, I know that my 'permanent' 2000pt list will not use all four character slots for sure.

I don't think I have used all 4 character slots in a 2k game since Tomb Kings 3-4 years ago, and that was because they need as much magic as they can get. The more important factor though is points. You can grab a Slann and an engine for only 2 slots but have spent way more points than some armies will use on 4 slots. In most armies I do try to minimize characters, but only to a certain degree. You usually need a general for leadership/fighting, at least 1 wizard for dispelling abilities but that is scant, and sometimes a BSB. If you have a high Ld army you can make the scroll cady the general and get away with 2 characters.

I did not consider that the Slann can effectively go general, BSB, good magic defence and very hard to kill so remove the need for any other characters. I do agree with you that I often find a fighting character in one of my main units to be pretty helpful to swing combats their way by providing a bunch of extra kills. I think the point though is the trade off for that character you are sneaking in for 2-3 extra kills worth of combat res is you could have a small support unit which will net you flank charge, rank negation and outnumber for +5 combat res which deosn't rely on dice. The downside is that rather than just charging straight into combat with a character's unit you need to think about your two units, make them work together, move them well and possibly force your opponent to fall for the bait. Also, a small/medium support unit is more vulnerable to missile fire and magic.

Am I on the right track there?

 

[DonkeyHotep]

First, the 13 saurus get spears and typically not even musicians. Their job is to hang out somewhere and say "you shall not pass". They'll still make 24 attacks straight to the face against most things, and if something is gonna laugh at 24 saurus attacks then having 2 extra ranks sometimes doesn't help. (I.E. WOC doom skwad) The 13th saurus is to get them over the hump for panic checks. They have to kill 4 saurus to make a panic check. It matters.

Yeah, sometimes I build the slann with the diadem, a scroll, war banner, bsb, and the Becalming cogitation. He coughs up 6 DD, says no to 6's and gives +2 CR. (as much as some heroes are gonna do with kills honestly) He costs 375. For added magic defense you can take the banner of dominion on your T.G., if the enemy is running crazy bullcrap like LOL TZEENTCH, vampire counts or Tomb Kongs, well.... a lot of that stuff has pretty low leadership, and 18 inches is the reach of most Tzeentch magic.....

I miss my E.O.T.G., it solved the problem of blood knights and Chaos dragons so well. But it costs more then a slann, and it tend to get whacked way easier. The problem is that 100 pts for the skink and 55 points for the engine is enough to buy 20 skinks and a kroxigor, respectively, and that's a lotta boys, while still getting the krox. That being said, the engine is not a terrible buy, and in my tourney list I took one.

I also do sometimes take a scar vet to buff up my cold one riders. I usually give him a C.O. with either no magic or a B.B.O.C. and amulet of Itzl. He is 35 points cheaper since he displaces a C.O. rider.

The other thing is, though you can't charge right ahead and have to worry about your two units, your opponent has to think about your two units also, and as the mitten formation proved, he has difficulty charging right ahead also, because you can outmaneuver the heroes and start combats that they aren't in, or just thwack them with kroxigor.

The Skinkxigor unit is so good, I would consider taking a third in my army, as I currently run 2. They are also fairly resistant to shooting since 1/3 hits goes on the krox, and that can even help avoid panic because it's based onthe # of models that die, not wounds taken.

The other thing is, you stated that small support units are vulnerable to magic right? Not terribly true. The problem is that they aren't really important enough to fling crap at, and breaking their ranks isn't such a big deal because they usually ain't got many. Further, our leadership is still strong even when toad isn't around, so even though precautions against panic are nice, they aren't as needed as you might think.