AoS Melee Tzeentch Daemon

[Canas]

I've been trying to come up with a way of getting any of the tzeentch daemons to be halfway capable in melee but I can't really figure out a way. Now I'm not expecting them to be briljant. But aside from maybe skinks, or the occasional 4-wound hero, there aren't a whole lot of units that'l fear close quarters combat with any tzeentch daemon. Even a lord of change isn't all that scary in melee. Which is kind of silly. I know the mortal followers, especially the various tzaangor & ogroid, are more capable in melee. But I'd like a daemon army.

So any ideas? So far the only thing I've found that vaguely works is a daemon prince. It's one of the few tzeentch daemons that actually has a halfway decent melee stateline. Plus it synergizes nicely with arcane transformation (a one-use permanent spell buff giving +1 attack on 1 weapon) & any offensive artifact/daemonic power. I would've expected there to be more stuff like arcane transformation, it's a very tzeentchian spell., transforming seemingly harmless heroes into powerfull fighters. But that's all we really have. In general, tzeentch seems to be rather lacking in any sort of synergy across their daemons. Am I missing something, or are tzeentch daemons basicly doomed to rely on their mortal followers if they want to actually achieve something in close combat?

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Enlightened on discs count as deamons. Give me a day or so I'll try to find other options.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

And soul grinders are about the only other option more durable and killy than the prince even with the cost increase but unable to take am artifact. Tzeentch saved all the melee prowess for tzaangors

 

[Canas]

How annoying. I would've liked some of the proper daemons (englightened on disc don't really count ) to at least be halfway capable. Even kairic acolytes seem to be better in melee than most of the daemons. And thats without taking into account that the daemons are more expensive. If you'd spend just as much on the acolytes as on the daemon unit the acolytes beat all of them in melee.

Would've liked it if at least the chariots and screamers resembled something decent in melee. But those are again very squishy and only the herald on chariot has halfway decent output against stuff that isn't a monster. Also Tzeentch seems to completly lack any form of potential buffs and synergies for their daemonic troops. Heroes like the herald at least can carry an artifact and be buffed with arcane transformation which allows most of em to at least be decent-ish offensivly (they're still made out of wet tissue though..). Seems like tzeentch would benefit a lot from some minor buffs to melee for it's daemons. Though I guess competitivly it's not really needed as you can just bring their mortal warriors along.

 

[Aginor]

Hmmm what about screamers?
Their attacks and save are comparable to Saurus Knights.
Sure, not stellar, but could work. They are also fast (16" fly move) so they can grab objectives, they do extra damage against monsters, and they can cause mortal wounds when flying to their destination, and the enemy has a -1 on hit if you have a Daemon hero nearby.

The other possibility is a Daemon Prince.
Technically he is part of the Slaves to Darkness, but IIRC you can include him in a Tzeentch Daemon army, he can have the Tzeentch keyword.
He brings a lot of capabilities for his 160 points IMO.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

screamers are 100 for 3 and have no support. its manly the 5+ to hit that holds tzeench deamons back in melee princes and soul grinders are good but every thing else can't hit in melee and the only good support ability for daemons is the above mentioned spell

 

[Erta Wanderer]

horrurs are very good tarpits and their ranged damage isn't bad but 1 attack at 5/5 is realy bad for melee

 

[Canas]

horrurs are very good tarpits and their ranged damage isn't bad but 1 attack at 5/5 is realy bad for melee

Horrors are amazing fodder. But about as capable as skinks in melee.

Hmmm what about screamers?
Their attacks and save are comparable to Saurus Knights.
Sure, not stellar, but could work. They are also fast (16" fly move) so they can grab objectives, they do extra damage against monsters, and they can cause mortal wounds when flying to their destination, and the enemy has a -1 on hit if you have a Daemon hero nearby.

They only really seem to be a credible threat against monsters though. Against anything else it's only 9 attacks at 4+/3+, which even the Knights outperform fairly easily. And unlike Knights they can't get any support. Also, they're far more expensive than Knights.

The other possibility is a Daemon Prince.
Technically he is part of the Slaves to Darkness, but IIRC you can include him in a Tzeentch Daemon army, he can have the Tzeentch keyword.
He brings a lot of capabilities for his 160 points IMO.

I don't really want to field a bunch daemon princes just to be able to have something resembling a melee frontline though. And 1 prince isn't exactly going to form a frontline on his own. Plus, with only 1 halfway capable melee unit your opponent's positioning becomes rather easy; just tar-pit that one.

its manly the 5+ to hit that holds tzeench deamons back in melee princes and soul grinders are good but every thing else can't hit in melee and the only good support ability for daemons is the above mentioned spell

The 5+ to hit combined with everything having a 5+ to save. Imho the save might be even a bigger issue. The mounted heralds for example could be kitted out halfway decently offensivly, but it still leaves them way too fragile to use as a frontline. And nothing to really improve either of those. I don't get why they don't have a couple of supportive abilities instead of a hundred different coloured fireballs. Why don't they have some supportive spells like the aelven archmage's elemental shield.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

because tzeench isn't about TrikSy sPElls and PLanS hE all ABOUt tHe DAKA

 

[Canas]

because tzeench isn't about TrikSy sPElls and PLanS hE all ABOUt tHe DAKA

Whatever happenend to all tzeentch's scheming and plans then? I would expect Tzeentch to be a combination of overwhelming magical firepower & clever tricks to setup that overwhelming barrage of magic.

If nothing else I'd expect a bunch of rules like gestalt sorcery or the various loci abilities where putting down your units with these aura's in clever overlapping patterns results in the overwhelming firepower turning normally weak creatures like horrors into melee powerhouses as they feed on the magical flames a herald & his flamers are throwing around or some such.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

well ignoring my joke i think all the planing is in the destiny dice and a few terrible spells as for (gestalt sorcery or the various loci abilities where putting down your units with these aura's in clever overlapping patterns) there are a few tzaangors and blue scribes among others its just not focused toward melee

 

[Canas]

well ignoring my joke i think all the planing is in the destiny dice and a few terrible spells as for (gestalt sorcery or the various loci abilities where putting down your units with these aura's in clever overlapping patterns) there are a few tzaangors and blue scribes among others its just not focused toward melee

Those are rare though. Would've expected more of em. And more of them to synergize. Most of those are just "this unit gets a bonus when near X". As opposed to "this unit gives everything near it a bonus". Which makes it impossible for them to stack and synergize in any way.

Also yeah, starting to think the destiny dice might be the underlying cause. Being able to guarantee succes at key-moments seems to come at the cost of being very unreliable in melee.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

it is a very powerful ability pared with inherent magic buffs means tzeentch throws around death on the wind. maby that is why T deamons cant hit anything but thats why they pair all the chaos factions with mortals to fill in the gaps. T deamons do what they are made for very well and they where never meant to be khorne. khorne has no range nurgle is slow tzeentch cant hit to save his life and slanesh .... well slanesh is squishhhy sort of.

 

[Canas]

It's a sensible enough weakness to be the worst at melee of the bunch. I just wish there were some daemon units that'd be capable in melee. I'm not expecting tzeentch daemons to win a brawl against their equivalent daemons from the other chaos gods. But it'd be nice if they were at least a credible threat.

Just compare the various heralds. The herald of Tzeentch is the most expensive, it is the squishiest, it has the weakest combat profile, it struggles the most with armour being the only herald without rend on all it's attacks, it's the only herald without some sort of supportive ability. All this in exchange for getting a ranged attack, which isn't nearly enough to make up for it's lacking melee profile, and being the best wizard of the bunch (though his wizardly bonusses aren't super impressive unless you're Lucky enough to consistently manage to get 9+ for your casting rolls).

Did we get tzeentch before or after nurgle? Might simply be that they're starting to become somewhat outdated, especially with respect to supportive abilities & survivability seeing how especially those two mechanics seem to have had quite a lot of powercreep and those are were tzeentch has been lacking from the beginning.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

tzeench is the oldest of the chaos factions they are due for an update but StD first

 

[Canas]

mm, here's hoping for an update that gives them some more synergy and possibilities for "just as planned" as well as making (some of) their daemons actually capable in melee so I can play a daemon army where the tactic isn't "stand behind a boatload of horrors flinging magical fire at your enemies and hope they die before you run out of horrors" (which is very skaven-y now that I think about it.. and not very tzeentchian)