AoS Magic Ideas

[Canas]

I've finally got annoyed enough to try and make up some homebrew rules to fix the flaws in the magic system, or at least begin to. I've already suggested something in http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/idea-for-magic-summoning.19107/ but after thinking about it for a while I've come to the conclusion that that system would probably be too complex so I've come up with a new attempt. See the pdf I've attached for the current draft.

The goal of this project as a whole is the following:

• Empowering wizards to make a wizard-based army viable by giving them the following:
  • Acces to additional default spells that fullfill different basic niches
  • Acces to additional bonus spells, or even schools of magic
  • Acces to additional spellcasts
  • The ability to prolong, shorten or remove, spell-effects so that lasting buffs/debuffs become more noticable
  • Connecting this to how powerfull the wizards inherently are (a slann will benefit more than a battlewizard)
  • Benefits to having multiple wizards by giving them some basic spell interaction and not having the rule of 1 invalidate them when thre are more
  • Keeping their increased powers in check by adding a point costs
• Diversify the wizards from various factions so there's more difference between taking a starpriest & a battlewizard than their signature spell.
• Make summoning work in a balanced way by giving the following:
  • A spell to generate some reinforcement points for summoning
  • Allowing summoning to be used to reinforce units in certain situations
• Allowing non-wizard focussed armies counterplay by increasing the abilities of units that can unbind but aren't wizards
• Avoid the issues of mortal wound spam by sticking to normal wounds as much as possible, albeit in larger quantities and sometimes with rend.
• Distinguish the magic system more from the ability system by allowing a wizard to be more versatile & by allowing it to be more common for wizards to be able to cast more than once.

This will not benefit all wizards equally as some will already have spells that fullfill the same niches as the one's I've added

What appears to be somewhat stable & balanced:

• Basic spells.
• Basic rules for counteracting the additional power I've given wizards.
• Basic rules for empowering wizards & wizard-based armies & picking additional spells.
• Rules for summoning.
• Basic limitations on the armies a wizard can join.
• How to include the official spells.

What is very much experimental:

• A start to distinguishing various wizards based on faction.
• A start to the various lores of magic.
• A start for empowering spells & spells backfiring.
• A start towards balanced numbers.
• Some interaction with spells
• Limitations based on wizard level

What is not in the current version:

• Actual proper tried and tested balance, Guinea-pigs are needed to try out a bunch of games to figure out the practical effect of spells. Any volunteers?

Anyone have any remarks/ideas/suggetions?

Edit: also don't mind the lack of fluff I've not exactly put much tought in adding in flavor the spells
Edit 2: Added a new draft.
Edit 3: Draft 3
Edit 4: Draft 4, this time with some vague sense of balance.
Edit: draft 5, the banishment of wizards from non-magic factions.
Edit 6: The return of the official spells
Edit 7: Summoning strikes back.
Edit 8: A solid base
Edit 9: Something playable
Edit 10: now with an introduction and some improvements to summoning
Edit 11: With new basic rules, also divided the rules in an "essential" and "advanced" part, also added a picture of a slann cuz that was needed.
Edit 12: readjusted the spells I've added to make them more in line with the existing spells.
Edit 13: Changed some damaging spells around to be more interesting than just "deals X damage", there are now moving vortexes which can screw your own lines over amongst other things, o joy
Edit 14: Further specified summoning & how to generate points.
Edit 15: Some small balance changes & changed the fires of battle rule to be a bit simpler to use.
Edit 16: Changed the first of battle rule, made a distinction between major (proper summoning spells) and minor (effects that trigger uncer certain conditions) types of summoning.

 

[Aginor]

The pdf download isn't working for me.

 

[Canas]

weird, it does work if I try it. Try a diferent browser?

Otherwise you can use this I suppose. Though I doubt it's pleasant to read on here given that it's already a considerable amount of text.

Spoiler: The pdf

General:

- Non wizards-units that can unbind learn interfere & dispel. They can attempt to do this instead of unbinding that turn but they need to roll a 12+ on 2D6.

- Wizards can buy the ability to cast and unbind an additional spell for 50 points, the cost of doing this increases by 25 each time you buy it for a wizard. First wizard pays 50, second 75, third 100 etc. You can also give a wizard 3 additional spells that way, cost increases the same way.

- Wizards still know their special spells on their warscrolls, these spells are intended to change the "basic" spells like mystic shield.

- Summoning can be used to reinforce an existing unit, if that unit is in range. Reinforcements must join the new unit more than 3" away from any enemy unit. Hence a surrounded unit cannot be reinforced this way due to enemies being physically in the way of the new warriors trying to materialize.

Rule of 1: A unit can only benefit/suffer from 1 copy of a given spell.

Spells:

All wizards gain:

Empower: Prolong the lasting effects of all active spells within 8" of the caster by 1 additional turn.


Casting roll 8+

Interfere: Decrease the lasting effects of all active spells within 8" of the caster by 1 turn to a minimum of 1


Casting roll 8+

Dispell: Clear a unit of all spell effects


Casting roll 9+

Reinforce: Generates 10 reinforcement points * 3 D6


Casting roll 7+

Arcane bolt:

D3 wounds

Casting roll 4+

Mystic shield:

+1 save

Casting roll 6+

Teach: Teach a spell the wizard knows to a friendly wizard substract 1 from the castingroll for every 3" between the two wizards. Counts as both wizards casting 1 spell as it requires the full concetration of both wizards.


Casting roll 10+

In addition to the above choose 2 spells from the following for each spell the wizard can cast in a turn (e.g. a starpriest can cast 1 spell so he picks two, a slann can cast 3 so he picks 6, if you bought additional spellcasts those increase how much you can pick here). Arcane shield: D6 on getting wounded, 6+ ignore wound


Casting roll 6+

Arcane Barrier: D6 on getting wounded, 6+ ignore wound allies in 5" around caster


Casting roll 8+

Arcane hail: 2 D3 wounds


Casting roll 5+

Arcane barrage: 2D3 wounds + 1D3 for every 10 models in the unit(<10 = 2D3, 10-19 3D3 + 20-29 4D3. 30-39 5d3 40 6d3)


Casting roll 7+

Arcane Bombardement:

2D3 wounds in d3" of a point within 18"of the caster

Casting roll 7+

Arcane Blast: 2D3 wounds -1 Rend


Casting roll 8+

Arcane Wrath: 2D3 -2 Rend


Casting roll 9+

Arcane rend: 2D3 -1 Rend doubled if the target is a monster


Casting roll 10+

Arcane lance: 2D3 Rend -1 doubled if the target is a hero.


Casting roll 10+

Arcane empowerment: Heal 1 wound


Casting roll 7+

 

[Aginor]

works now. perhaps some browser hickup.

 

[Bowser]

Looks pretty good, just reminds me of the extra abilities you could give to a slann in 8th edition. I think especially with the bew stormcast book giving totem choices, goving wizards something like robe choices, similar to a battlemage, and having a spell loadout choice from that colour/element/school of magic would be cool.

 

[Canas]

Edit: I randomly managed to press post... gimme a moment while I actually type my response.

 

[Canas]

Yea, I want to eventually work to some system of schools/elements/colours, but my most immediate aim was to give the wizards something to use for their base-spells. If I can manage to make some fleshed out schools I'd probably move most of the power into picking an appropriate school.

Right now I have the following things I'd like to figure out in no particular order:

• Balance the numbers of my first draft
  • Any volenteers to try out the first draft? Going to need a large number of games to get anythign vaguely close to balancing
• Interactions between magic spells
  • There's some basic interaction now that effects can be prolonged or shortened or even dispelled. But I'd like this to be more. E.g. what I suggested somewhere else with creating a pool of oil and then setting it on fire that sorta stuff.
• Different schools of magic
  • If anyone has old rulesheets from warhammer fantasy that I can use to figure out how the various schools "work" that'd be wonderfull. I'm still going to make up my own effects for the most part, but it'd be nice to not accidently change a school that's supposed about annoying your enemy with hexes into something focussed on melting his face off.
• How to distinguish powerlevels between wizards properly:
  • Currently the only real distinction between any two wizards seems to be how many spellcasts they have, which I'm using as a basis. Unfortunatly 99% seems to have 1 spellcast, which means that a "mere" mortal wizard is going to be as good as a skink starseer or tzeentch wizard lord or an ancient aelven archmage. Points also don't seem like a reliable indication... So if anyone has any ideas they're welcome to give them.
• How to distinguish between wizards from various races:
  • Limit the various schools available for a race? I think the new spells like in the tzeentch book might be helpfull here seeing as the best I can come up with right now would be to have various races/factions have their own school next to the general schools. So say a tzeentch wizard would know say the lore of tzeentch & the lore of metal while a slann would know the lore of seraphon & the lore of meta. I hope they introduce the faction specific lores properly in the new generals handbook, both so all factions get that fixed at the same time & so I don't have to buy 10 books to figure this out
• What to do with odd wizards like pink horrors:
• What to do with existing special spells, removing them wouldn't be much fun, but making broad sweping changes like the D3 mortal wounds become 2D3 normal wounds can lead to some odd balancing issues ( for example a magister would suddenly be able to have his spell be twice as effective, though it has also be come less reliable)
  

So that's what I'm at currently. Also god what have I gotten myself into.. this is going to take quite some time to do well..

 

[Crowsfoot]

Yea, I want to eventually work to some system of schools/elements/colours, but my most immediate aim was to give the wizards something to use for their base-spells. If I can manage to make some fleshed out schools I'd probably move most of the power into picking an appropriate school.

Right now I have the following things I'd like to figure out in no particular order:

• Balance the numbers of my first draft
  • Any volenteers to try out the first draft? Going to need a large number of games to get anythign vaguely close to balancing
• Interactions between magic spells
  • There's some basic interaction now that effects can be prolonged or shortened or even dispelled. But I'd like this to be more. E.g. what I suggested somewhere else with creating a pool of oil and then setting it on fire that sorta stuff.
• Different schools of magic
  • If anyone has old rulesheets from warhammer fantasy that I can use to figure out how the various schools "work" that'd be wonderfull. I'm still going to make up my own effects for the most part, but it'd be nice to not accidently change a school that's supposed about annoying your enemy with hexes into something focussed on melting his face off.
• How to distinguish powerlevels between wizards properly:
  • Currently the only real distinction between any two wizards seems to be how many spellcasts they have, which I'm using as a basis. Unfortunatly 99% seems to have 1 spellcast, which means that a "mere" mortal wizard is going to be as good as a skink starseer or tzeentch wizard lord or an ancient aelven archmage. Points also don't seem like a reliable indication... So if anyone has any ideas they're welcome to give them.
• How to distinguish between wizards from various races:
  • Limit the various schools available for a race? I think the new spells like in the tzeentch book might be helpfull here seeing as the best I can come up with right now would be to have various races/factions have their own school next to the general schools. So say a tzeentch wizard would know say the lore of tzeentch & the lore of metal while a slann would know the lore of seraphon & the lore of meta. I hope they introduce the faction specific lores properly in the new generals handbook, both so all factions get that fixed at the same time & so I don't have to buy 10 books to figure this out
• What to do with odd wizards like pink horrors:
• What to do with existing special spells, removing them wouldn't be much fun, but making broad sweping changes like the D3 mortal wounds become 2D3 normal wounds can lead to some odd balancing issues ( for example a magister would suddenly be able to have his spell be twice as effective, though it has also be come less reliable)

So that's what I'm at currently. Also god what have I gotten myself into.. this is going to take quite some time to do well..

It look great so far, I have no doubt you will tweak things as gameplay progresses

 

[Canas]

I thought of something for a rough indication of levels for wizards see the new pdf (added it to the top post as well).

Anyway the basic idea is that wizards have levels, these give bonusses. In basis these levels are based on whats on the official warscroll & a slann will be more powerfull than a battlewizard. However you can buy additional levels. To Ensure that a slann remains on top the cost of this is dependent on what race the wizard is,this is divided as followed: Races resistant to magic (e.g. a dwarf that somehow learned magic, or a chaos wizard of khorne), Races with no special magical affinity (e.g. humans), Races with magical affinitiy (e.g. aelfs, tzeentch mortals), Races wit extreme magical affinity (e.g. seraphon, maybe tzeentch daemons?) The greater the magic affinity the easier it is to gain an additional level.

As to which races fall into which catagory exactly, use some common sense based on the fluff for now. Currently I think the seraphon are the ones with the greatest afinity with the only possibly contender being tzeentch daemons. However I'm not well versed enough in warhammer lore to make any definitive claims about that. This should also already go some way towards distinguishing the wizards of various factions.

Also I've started to make a distinction between hero wizards & unit wizards like pink horrors to make it so that unit wizards don't end up being weirdly powerfull.

As with the previous case, any numbers are placeholders I've made up on the spot for now & any remarks or suggestions are welcome.

 

[Canas]

I've taken the descriptions from the various common lores of magic from the internet and tried to make a start with filling in te various spells.
I've used the definitions I found online for who may use which lore, which goes a way to make the various wizards unique alongside their signature spell.

I think I now have a fairly solid base in terms of the rules surrounding wizards & I'l try to make the actuall effects of the spells somewhat balanced next. Currently the various numbers are just made up and semi-random, so the power of various spells and schools may differ alot. Also, there isn't much interaction yet between spells & schools, though some synergies between certain spells are starting to appear, but that's mostly cuz buff A + buff B can be very good. So Il have a look at that too.

Once I have done that I'l try to figure out if I can make up some rules for the existing spells in AoS to be incorperated without any issues. Some of them like a starseers curse of fate would be perfectly fine, but most will need some kind of additional ruling.

 

[ljwylde]

Looks great so far!
A really powerful race from fantasy and even now for magic would be elves, specifically eldritch council/ high elves. The elven character teclis has 3 spells, and gets +2 to every cast and unbind! It was the same in 8th edition, where he got +5 to cast.

As for different schools of magic, there were 8 'lores' of magic:
Fire: Burning enemies and increasing the damage of troops.

Life: Healing/ resurrecting by no. of wounds/ toughening up allies.

Metal: does more damage the better their armour was, with spells for assassinating heroes and to decrease the armour save of a unit permanently.

Heavens: Storms, comets and blizzards to slow down the foe/ make them worse at hitting. Had a spell where you rolled for it each turn to see if it fell, and it got stronger the longer it did not fall for.

Beasts: increasing strength and rend of a unit, and buffing heroes ridiculously. A spell that was a straight line of d6 mortal wounds to everything it touched. Also had a fun one that transformed the wizard into a very powerful dragon for the rest of the game.

Shadow: significantly debugging toughness and strength of the foe. Also could buff a unit to have strength proportional to bravery.

Death: character sniping, scaring the enemy, etc.

Light: makes units faster and stronger. Incinerated the enemy.

Each lore gad a lore attribute which which was a smaller side affect of casting a spell. Different races had access to different lores, but some such as elves and humans could access all lores of magic. Almost every race also had its own unique lore of magic (greenskins got 2!) each with their own attributes. Sometimes, a race would get a bonus if they chose their own lore. Such as high elves got plus one to cast for high magic.
Wizards had levels as discussed, with option to pay for higher levels.

Thought this could be useful for designing the magic system. Best of luck!!

 

[Canas]

By the way, does anyone have any idea how to stop people from fielding say only starpriests with their empire army because the starpriest is so much better than the battlewizard. Or worse, taking an army that has no wizards like the stormforged and dumping a slann in it thus making an army that's good at literally everything. The grand alliances seem to make things a tad problematic to balance... To the best of my knowledge the only thing "balancing" it are the alliagiance traits and the potential lack of an artifiact. But that doesn't seem like it'd really do anything significant in this case..

 

[ljwylde]

Back in eight edition, there was something called 'winds of magic', where you rolled for how much power you could use each turn.

 

[Bowser]

Back in eight edition, there was something called 'winds of magic', where you rolled for how much power you could use each turn.

Which really sucked when your slann only had maybe 2 or 3 dice! Never had much luck with that! But was great when you got a 10-12

 

[Canas]

And now with same vague sense of balanced numbers, if anyone feels like being a Guinea-pig go ahead and try them out to see how close I got to something decent.

Also I've added a way to empower spells with the winds of magic, this also further distinguishes weak & powerfull wizards. Not all spells can be empowered and most of the ones that can have the possibility of backfiring.

Up next:

• Create distinction between wizards that currently have similar power but shouldn't fluffwise (e.g. starseers and starpriests)
• Figure out how to stop someone from taking an army that's weak magic-wise and taking a powerfull wizard and thus get the best of both worlds. Grand alliances make things a mess
• Figure out what to do with the existing spells.
• Add in the remaining lores like the little waagh.
• Further attempt to create something vaguely resembling balance
  

Edit: forgot to update the pdf so it was the wrong file..

 

[Aginor]

• Figure out how to stop someone from taking an army that's weak magic-wise and taking a powerfull wizard and thus get the best of both worlds. Grand alliances make things a mess

IMO some powerful abilities, including spells, should probably be tied to allegiance then. Or allegiance abilities should be powerful enough to make that a hard decision at least. Encouraging playing pure armies.

 

[ljwylde]

Maybe you could give bonuses to wizards who fight for their own race, or debuffs for those who mix race.

 

[Aginor]

Racist!

 

[ljwylde]

Yh, it does not sound too great out of context

 

[Canas]

The issue is that there is so little encouraging mono-armies to begin with that there is nothing to really build upon...

So far I've thought of the following but all of it has issues.

• A wizard requires some sort of escort from his faction when put in a non-mono army.
  • Downside: this escort isn't necesarly weaker than what you'd normally want to field. Especially if that wizard has some synergy with his own race like our starpriest with his serpent staf...
• A wizard of level X or higher may only be fielded in his own allegiance, or the highest wizard needs to be of the chosen allegiance
  • Downside: allegiances are relativly meaningless, the ony real effect is that it screws with the bonusses your heroes can get.
  • Downside: it doesn't make much sense fluff-wise for most races. Yea a slann isn't going to join an empire army any time soon, but an aelf archmage will totally support a stormforged army.
• Using a wizard with another Allegiance than your chosen allegiance comes with some extra pointcost
  • Downside: Cheap and powerfull wizards would need to be horrendously expensive to stop non-magic armies from picking one up anyway.
  • Downside: Conversly taking a "weaker" wizard from a different army to bolster your army of wizards with that 1 missing lore or cool bonus ability would probably be far too expensive now to even start considering.
• Limiting spells based on allegiance:
  • Downside: this is really only logical if you start putting wizards in a khorne army, who's fluff activly negates magic. In any other case it's just a game-gimmick and that's bad.
• Buffs/debuffs based on allegiance:
  • Downside: again illogical unless its khorne...
  • Downside: there's no real logic to buffs/debuffs in this context. Some individual units may bolster or negate magic, even specific kinds of magic. But it's not like just standing next to a saurus warrior is going to make a slann more powerfull, or standing next to a human makes him weaker..
  • Downside: how strong should the buffs/debuffs be?
    

Though the biggest issue with all this is that grand allegiances are a thing & that there's no real drawback to them. Which also results in other weird situations... it's perfectly fine to field say a bastiladon with your stormforged. And although mixing armies can be fun, since it has no real drawbacks it can lead to some very weird armies taking the best of all subfactions... I hope the new book will change some of that.