8th Ed. Lore choice/strategy against Teclis and friends

[rangerzedd]

Hi all,

In an upcoming match, I'll be facing a HE player fielding the following:

Teclis with a sidekick noble carrying the obsidian lodestone for MR3
2 x Frost phoenixes
caradryan
20 phoenix guard
25 white lions
28 sea guard
2 units of 15 archers

Rather than lament his cheeseball list, I'd like to beseech the old ones for guidance; firstly on which lore to choose. At the moment, I'm torn between Death and Light.

Death comes with the obvious expectation of throwing everything I have at popping the head off of that flimsy little elf as fast as possible. I'd have less to worry about in terms of him using the scroll to torch one of my snipe spells, as there will be two to replace it. That being said, I'd be going up against a 4+ ward minimum with MR and even higher if he chooses to go the high magic route. Assuming the plan works, dropping his units to L7 would be a treat for my sallys.

Light comes with the opposite strategy. More protection against shooting and sweet combat buffs. If i manage to pull off the net of amyntok, I would conceivably have a 50% chance of screwing with his magic phase (assuming he doesn't dispel it immediately on his turn or it doesn't get scrolled out of my slann's mind)

I wont go into too much detail on my list but:
Slann (becalming, standard of discipline, harmonic, channelling staff, loremaster) in 26 tg bunker
36 saurus
4 rippers
3 x 10 skink skirmishers
2 x sallies
kitted ancient steg
2 x scarvet cowboys
scroll caddy priest

I fantasize about being able to get my rippers into Teclis' face, but I know they're going to get shot to pieces. I also realize now that I haven't accounted for how I'd take down the frozen turkeys....

Any advice would be hugely appreciated!

 

[Mr Phat]

Slann (becalming, standard of discipline, harmonic, channelling staff, loremaster

asking what lore and writing in loremaster?
Still playing with the old book or is that a typo?

I'd say life is good lore for your list and vs your opponent.
Wardsaves dont affect dwellers.

The minus strenght from phoenixes dosnt matter if you win by static combar res, with toughness 8 saurus
The attribute also provides synergy with all your multiwound units.

 

[Pinktaco]

Frost Phoenix is downright overpowered for the current price. Let's just compare them for one second:

2 scar vets against a single Frostie can over average do 1½ wound, that is including predatory fighter and assuming it didn't roll for a better ward save. The biggest issue is in fact how it counter the strenght of our cowboy's by having a superior weapon skill, high toughness combined with -1S.. Not to mention the ward.

Now compared to our own beasty stegadon 2 scar vets will on average do 4 wounds to it. Here our cowboys can use their superior WS, S and not be bothered about the armour save.

There's a silly 10pts difference on the two.

Our ancient stegadons w/ sharpened horns - who randomly gets the impact hit off will on average do 1 wound each, multiplied into D3 wounds. It it wasn't for the -1S and ward save it would've been 2 wounds multiplied into D3 wounds.

So our ancient stegs arent quite as reliable either.

A Carnosaur with 5 attacks will do 0.8 wounds multiplied into D3 wounds.

6 kroxigors, including champ and PF will on average pump out 20-21 attacks which will result in 3.4 wounds. That's assuming they'll all actually get to hit. The frost mutant will statistically get 2.2 wounds through each turn so chances are alright. Should a krox die before they hit we'd be looking at 2.6 wounds.

I'd actually say that due to the low armour save and still relatively low ward that poison can be somewhat effective. 30 javelin skinks will on average do 2 wounds pr shooting phase. That's actually not too bad.

Those are what I'd consider our heavy hitters. Templeguards will lose quite a few models because they'll be hitting on 4+, wounding on 6+, which can be saved with an armour save of 6+ and the ward of 5+. The frost have 4 attacks + stomp all at WS6/S6 - so our boys will be lucky to even get a single wound on the thing (average - 0.6 wounds).

A combination of heavy skink skirmisher javelin shots and maybe kroxigors OR 3-4 scar vets in a bus could do a number on these flying fvckers. It's quite silly that a monster should have such good stats. If only it just had WS4 and Ld6 or something like that we'd have a bette chance with our characters.

The sad thing is that you'll still have to deal with his white lions.

You'll have to direct your salamanders at his white lions. Burn as many as you can. If you can burn away 10 of those - reducing it to a 15 model unit - even your regular saurus will be dangerous to him. He'll lose around 7 models (assuming swords and not spears and going 6 wide) and you'll lose 7 models yourself. A combat he obviously cannot sustain for very long.

So personally I think I'd cut down on the saurus - going 30 models, 6 wide and 5 deep and get as many skink skirmishers at possible.

I'd probably switch the rippers for cameleon skinks. Put them up in his face, near is phoenix. He'll either have to shoot at them (if he gets first turn) or shoot at your other skinks. Both will be a threat to hit phoenix.

Now maybe it's just me, but I think I'd get the 8 sig slann with book of ashur. You'll minimize the risk of IF and since his units are somewhat small so even getting a fireball off on his white lions a couple of times can hurt. Should he rock the damned banner you'll obviously be hard pressed. Especially considering how his other elite unit have a 4+ ward save. The various buffs and hexes are very welcomed in this matchup - both wyssans, iceshard and 5+ regen can be very useful.

I'm not sure what else to tell you.

If you decide to run with your current list you'll have to focus on one unit at a time I think. Try and knock out his two monsters and see if you can reduce the white lions as much as possible before CC hits.

 

[NexS1]

frost phoenixes are reliant on the winds of magic. if the roll is low, hammer the phoenix with everything you've got.
Kroxigors are probably best becuase they're striking ASL anyway and are effected by -1S the least.
They can be a pain in the rear, but certainly not unbeatable (I play elves and the frosty ins't the best thing in the world).

I rate an ancient Steg about the same as a frosty, they serve different purposes, but both are good for what they're used.

Get a buffed flesh to stone off on any saurus unit and nothing the elves can throw ar you (short of characters) will be wounding on less than 6's.

 

[Scalenex]

That's a very tough list. I'd go with High Magic lore master actually. I'd give your two largest units something with MR if you can afford it.

Drain Magic will prevent Teclis from targeting all his augments/hexes on a single unit.

You have Hand of Glory to let your Saurus hold their own against Elf WS a bit and Walk Between Worlds to let your heavy hitters get to the phoenixes (or any other number of fun things).

Arcane Unforging can be used against Teclis or his sidekick or you can remove Caradryan's magical sword and make him vulnerable to a Scar Vet challenge. Whatever you do, It'll probably draw out Teclis' Scroll of Hoeth.

I'd swap out a spell you don't like much for Shadows and take Melkoth's Miasma, maybe Enfeebling Foe or Withering if your roll that. Maybe fling Tempest at the archers once and then lose it. Or hit the Archers with Soul Quench once and then lose it.

Note Caradryan's magic sword inflicts flaming hits. If you don't want to Arcane Forge him, I would suggest giving anti-fire magic items to your Saurus characters

 

[NexS1]

Drain Magic will prevent Teclis from targeting all his augments/hexes on a single unit.

How do you figure? I mean, you can use drain magic in your next turn to dispel any hexes, but they'll be in effect for his whole turn...

 

[Pinktaco]

frost phoenixes are reliant on the winds of magic. if the roll is low, hammer the phoenix with everything you've got.
Kroxigors are probably best becuase they're striking ASL anyway and are effected by -1S the least.
They can be a pain in the rear, but certainly not unbeatable (I play elves and the frosty ins't the best thing in the world).

I rate an ancient Steg about the same as a frosty, they serve different purposes, but both are good for what they're used.

Get a buffed flesh to stone off on any saurus unit and nothing the elves can throw ar you (short of characters) will be wounding on less than 6's.

I don't want to completely derail this thread, but I have to disagree here. Without Sharpened Horns an Ancient Steg is only 10pts cheaper. It cannot fly, have no ward save, weak WS, less attacks (not counting the flimsy WS2/S3 skinks) and doesn't give everybody in base contact ASL along with -1S. Oh, not to mention Ld9 vs Ld6 (quite important vs spirit leech).

The Ancient Steg more or less live or die with the impact hit where as the can hold up a lot of stuff and still dish out a decent amount of attacks. And yes the frost phoenix is reliant on the wind of magic roll, but at least it'll still hit first against.. everthing expect other elfs with ASF.

Now I'm not saying that the ancient stegadon is useless or not worth the point, just that the frost phoenix packs a lot of good stuff while being very well priced. I mean, how many monsters have those stats and special rules for that price? A chimera is also 10pts less, but have to pay for regeneration and flaming breath, only have WS4, T5 and Ld5, not to mention 1 wound less. You can snipe it off with spirit leech with a little luck or still do a number of wounds on it with the ancient stegadons impact hit (should that ever occour lol).

But you are right, the monsters have a different role and I'm quite happy with our steggy. I just find it mildly absurd.

 

[NexS1]

Keep in mind that a steg is immune to psych and stubborn where a frosty is not. A basic anc steg had 4d6 +3 poisoned shots, which, again is amazing. I love my eotg though. For 50 points, you give all units around it a ward save, which again is amazing.
They serve different purposes and both do well
Also, a stegadon has a MUCH better model. The phoenix model is gawdamn fugly. Worst model I've ever seen

Edit: also, spirit leech uses inspiring presence for LD comparisons, so that's neither here nor there

 

[rangerzedd]

asking what lore and writing in loremaster?
Still playing with the old book or is that a typo?

I couldn't remember "focus of mystery" and the book was all the way on the other side of the couch...

You'll have to direct your salamanders at his white lions. Burn as many as you can. If you can burn away 10 of those - reducing it to a 15 model unit - even your regular saurus will be dangerous to him. He'll lose around 7 models (assuming swords and not spears and going 6 wide) and you'll lose 7 models yourself. A combat he obviously cannot sustain for very long.

So personally I think I'd cut down on the saurus - going 30 models, 6 wide and 5 deep and get as many skink skirmishers at possible.

I'd probably switch the rippers for cameleon skinks. Put them up in his face, near is phoenix. He'll either have to shoot at them (if he gets first turn) or shoot at your other skinks. Both will be a threat to hit phoenix.

Definitely agree on sallys aiming to burninate the White Lions, 3+ or not. If only they would decide not to eat their cruel but well-meaning masters for once...

I'm hesitant to cut down on saurus as whichever list I choose will also have to serve as an anti-O&G list for the following match (it's an irregular tournament) so I'll need plenty of bodies to grind past T1 of combat.

Luckily, a recent rule change allows me to change 500pts of my list (but not my opponents!). I'm pulling out the rippers and the steg upgrades to add 2x5 chammies and another 10 blowpipe skinks (I ran out of javvie models ) Let's see how the frosties like an enfilade!

Here's V2.0:
Slann (becalming, standard of discipline, harmonic/channeling staff, focus of mystery) in 26 tg bunker w/ flame banner for the trolls in the following game
36 saurus
4 x 10 skink skirmishers (2 with jav 2 with pipes)
2 x sallies
2 x 5 chammies
naked ancient steg
2 x scarvet cowboys
scroll caddy priest


In terms of lores, Life seems the front runner. Maybe I'm being predictable here, but the thought of dropping dwellers with a 66% chance of ending teclis (unbuffed) seems like too good of an opportunity to pass up. I'm intrigued by the option of High Magic, but it feels a little toothless if he's throwing purple sun and/or dwellers at me every turn with a +5.

 

[NexS1]

I always give my TG the armour piercing banner. If you need flaming attacks then use firey convocation of swap a spell out for a lore of fire spell. TG will ALWAYS be targettedd by the nastiest thing your opponent has, and because TG aren't nearly as good as any other army's elite trrops they will not be able to stand up in most cases without help.

I'd be giving as much extra punch as I could to the unit!

 

[Pinktaco]

White lions don't have enough the ridiculous 3+ against flame templates do they?

 

[NexS1]

From memory, i think the book says "+2 to armour against non-magic shooting attacks", but I'll check my book when I get home.

 

[NexS1]

I confirm, non-magical shooting attacks

 

[Mr Phat]

wauw...tough fur.