7th Ed. Lizzy's v's Dark Elfs?

[Foolie]

The text of Cupped Hands seems pretty self explanatory. You ignore the miscast, and then apply it to an enemy mage if they are in range. If there is no enemy mage, you don't apply it to anyone, but the miscast is still ignored. It seems fairly clear that ignoring the miscast and applying it to someone else are separate actions with separate conditions.

 

[salamander]

i would also consider a couple of steggies with bows for the hydras they tend to do well d3 wounds help with big nasty's even better if a skink chief is shooting the bow

Is he allowed to do that?

Also, I think the steggies will be a bit fucked if he brings a manticore or two...

I think you should defenetly use at least one stegie but to destroy theyre bolt throwers ore use some cavalry

 

[foster]

Has anyone have had their strongest Hero or Lord challenged by a Dark Elf Wizard that has a Ward save of under the attackers strength? I usually run a Carnosaur with Cold One Riders and my brother's been threatening me with one against my Carnosaur. He say's that when I except his challenge the rest of his unit which are 11 Cold Ones knights (forget the name) will go to town on my boy's (Hatred). We did some test rolling, if he charges me I'd be need double 1's for the break test and if I charge I'd be lucky to draw combat. Most of the time I'm failing to kill the Wizard which is posing a problem for me since my main killer is failing to add combat resolution.

I just wanted to get that out there and hear some comments about how to avoid trapping your best units.

 

[Dumbledore]

11 cold ones with heroes in is a BIG unit. I'm guessing he has the ASF banner on it and other stuff, maybe a bsb with hydra banner(+1 attack per rider and cold one ie 2 more attacks per model and don't forget this synergises with hatred). As he has a caster I'm guessing he doesn't use Ring of Hotec in which case a slann with lore of metal would wreck that unit if you get the big spell off. Otherwise if you charge this unit in the flank with a can opener (ie carno lord or steg or bboChotec scar vet etc) this unit will go down, especially if your can opener is supported with some static combat res. Otherwise the thing to do is force this to charge some skinks (should be relatively easy as 11 COR are hardly that manouverable) in a direction that leads them across the map. If you use 2-3 10 skink cohorts to do this you can then obliterate the rest of his army. Such a big unit is quite the pointsink so the rest should be nice and killable.

 

[foster]

I think you hit the head of the nail there Dumbledore. It's a very nasty unit that has an unbelievable combat resolution that I am having trouble beating, but it's not just the one unit. The other problem is he has another 12 Cold One Cavalry unit (no hero), three 10 man units of fast cavalry with repeater crossbows and 2 wizards on flying horses (not sure of the name), his third wizard with with a cold one unit with the wierd ward save. I haven't faced his 2250pt list but I do know he'll have a dragon in there.

I tried Cohorts but they tend to get shot the pieces with his Fast cavalry or magic that get's through. Even if I get to tempt my brother to charge the Skinks he either charges knowing he is in range of charging the units behind the Skinks or if they're out of range then he doesn't charge and move's off somewhere else. Playing with players that can read distances without needing a tape measure are very difficult to catch out. I'll need to learn how to play the distance game if I'm going to pull off any charges against my bro's Cavalry list.

I know I can lead my Bro's Dark Elves to pursuing my units, but how do you guys go about doing this; Is it just charging Skinks in their flanks, wait for them to fail thier break test and then have them run away and get over-runned by the pursuers. Or is it just waiting for my opponant to declare a charge at my already sneakly placed block of Skinks ready to flee and leave the chargers in the open ready for counter attack.

If anyone can add to this pls comment, I'm looking for other ways Hatred can be used against Dark Elves, or anything I need to look out for when playing an experienced player. .

 

[Azactoth]

Skinks can do the job... use your skinks to redirect his units... If skirmisher unit flees from charge, enemy unit must turn to closest visible skirmisher model... If your skink unit position between enemy unit and your main unit and most left or right skink in the unit is visible closest model, your enemy has two chance ;

1) He ignors skinks and cant charge the unit screened by skinks... wich means you can shoot them with poisonous attacks and take the same position with skinks next round (thanks for their M6)

2) Charge skinks... If he charge skinks you declare flee for skinks... if its front is large (like coldone knight I think 6 model) he pays half of his move (if your position correct) for turning towards your nearest model... even if destroy your skink unit you can charge from his flank arc with your hitter unit... Even 1 saurus hero with Great weapon can destroy coldone unit with flank charge...



If there is some difficult terrain near, you can use this terrain for your advantage... forests and water terrain is great for traping non skirmisher units... In diff. terrain non skirmishers cant march and move half move (if terrain is very difficult, they can only quarter move)... if you can pull them in this kind terrain they must spend valuable 1-2 turn for getting out...

 

[Wolf]

Has anyone have had their strongest Hero or Lord challenged by a Dark Elf Wizard that has a Ward save of under the attackers strength? I usually run a Carnosaur with Cold One Riders and my brother's been threatening me with one against my Carnosaur. He say's that when I except his challenge the rest of his unit which are 11 Cold Ones knights (forget the name) will go to town on my boy's (Hatred). We did some test rolling, if he charges me I'd be need double 1's for the break test and if I charge I'd be lucky to draw combat. Most of the time I'm failing to kill the Wizard which is posing a problem for me since my main killer is failing to add combat resolution.

I just wanted to get that out there and hear some comments about how to avoid trapping your best units.

Just make sure you have a unit champion in you CoR unit so that when he challenges with his sorceress you just accept with the champ and leave your oldblood to wreak havoc on his knights

 

[foster]

Azactoth I hate to be a nit pick, but doesn't the rules say that when the attackers charge a skirmisher unit once they get base to base to the nearest modal the Skirmishers then have to form up to the attackers front rank. Basically if the nearest modal is directly in front (like your picture) then the attackers do not have to wheel at all, it's a failed redirect. When I'm looking at the picture in the rule book 66.1 - Skirmishers Charging (a), I'm always end up allowing my opponant to pull off their charge that way, which makes the game run much smoother.

However if the tactic looks like it's gonna work, and that the attackers have to wheel to get to the nearest modal I feel beardy. It's like I've turned into a rule lawyer and I'm always end up having to pull out the rule book to prove what I had said. And even then I get that picture 66.1 - Skirmishers Charging (a) pointed out to me so I end up allowing my opponant to..... are you begining to see the pattern . It's a very difficult tactic for me to use.

Just make sure you have a unit champion in you CoR unit so that when he challenges with his sorceress you just accept with the champ and leave your oldblood to wreak havoc on his knights

I said the same thing to my brother so he replyed "the Champion isn't going to live for long anyway since I can target him with my magic. If that doesn't work then my Assasin is gonna jump out and get him" . Maybe not his exact words but he did mention them. Sometimes I think he's bullying me .

Anyway what would be the best weapon for my Carnosaur riding Old-blood to use? I've always equipt them with the blade of realities but they don't seem to do any damage (9 leadership hurts), and since there are no Hydra's I want to put that weapon away. BTW the burning blade of chotec is being used by my BSB Scar Veteran Cold One Rider.

 

[Azactoth]

Azactoth I hate to be a nit pick, but doesn't the rules say that when the attackers charge a skirmisher unit once they get base to base to the nearest modal the Skirmishers then have to form up to the attackers front rank. Basically if the nearest modal is directly in front (like your picture) then the attackers do not have to wheel at all, it's a failed redirect. When I'm looking at the picture in the rule book 66.1 - Skirmishers Charging (a), I'm always end up allowing my opponant to pull off their charge that way, which makes the game run much smoother.

The main idea is fleeing from charge... if skinks dont flee, its works like you write... but if skinks flees, enemy unit must pursue like my picture (there is an errata about that). Fleeing is the Skirmisher unit's most usefull choice... If skirmishers gives hold reaction enemy touch nearest model with any angle he wishes... then skirmishers form up to the attackers front rank... but if skirmishers gives flee reaction, skirmishers runs away on a line from the enemy units center to nearest visible skirmisher model's center (like my paint)... and pursuers must follow the same path... which means they must turn to fleeing path...

Edit: I find the Eratta; please read Skirmishers sections 2nd queastion

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m470856_Warhammer_FAQ_2008-02_Edition.pdf

 

[foster]

Azactoth I hate to be a nit pick, but doesn't the rules say that when the attackers charge a skirmisher unit once they get base to base to the nearest modal the Skirmishers then have to form up to the attackers front rank. Basically if the nearest modal is directly in front (like your picture) then the attackers do not have to wheel at all, it's a failed redirect. When I'm looking at the picture in the rule book 66.1 - Skirmishers Charging (a), I'm always end up allowing my opponant to pull off their charge that way, which makes the game run much smoother.

The main idea is fleeing from charge... if skinks dont flee, its works like you write... but if skinks flees, enemy unit must pursue like my picture (there is an errata about that). Fleeing is the Skirmisher unit's most usefull choice... If skirmishers gives hold reaction enemy touch nearest model with any angle he wishes... then skirmishers form up to the attackers front rank... but if skirmishers gives flee reaction, skirmishers runs away on a line from the enemy units center to nearest visible skirmisher model's center (like my paint)... and pursuers must follow the same path... which means they must turn to fleeing path...

Thanks mate, this makes a whole more sense. Abit dangorous because the pursuer's I'm up against are Cavalry, so they will roll 3d6 dice when pursueing. More then likely the Skinks will get overrun but that's no big deal. The only issue is that the Cavalry manages to hit something behind the Skinks. BTW I know they have to pursue the Skinks, but can they go for other units as well if they were to clip another unit?

 

[Azactoth]

Thanks mate, this makes a whole more sense. Abit dangorous because the pursuer's I'm up against are Cavalry, so they will roll 3d6 dice when pursueing. More then likely the Skinks will get overrun but that's no big deal. The only issue is that the Cavalry manages to hit something behind the Skinks. BTW I know they have to pursue the Skinks, but can they go for other units as well if they were to clip another unit?

I think there is a missunderstood... When the enemy cavalry charge it moves full distance (14" for coldone knights) not 3d6"... and generally they catch the skinks... and you lose about 70-80 pst... but in that position they give their flanks to your main unit/units... and if you destroy that cavalry unit with flank charge you can gain 200+ points ... thats the deal...

They must follow skinks... and if there is another friendly unit on pursuing path (not the first charge path) they can charge tahat unit according to "Enemy on the way" rule...

Example if another friendly unit is next to right of the main unit (in the first picture) , enemy can charge the new unit, but can not charge the main unit...

(My english not soo good sorry about that...I need more practice)

 

[DarkxLord]

Azactoth I hate to be a nit pick, but doesn't the rules say that when the attackers charge a skirmisher unit once they get base to base to the nearest modal the Skirmishers then have to form up to the attackers front rank. Basically if the nearest modal is directly in front (like your picture) then the attackers do not have to wheel at all, it's a failed redirect. When I'm looking at the picture in the rule book 66.1 - Skirmishers Charging (a), I'm always end up allowing my opponant to pull off their charge that way, which makes the game run much smoother.

However if the tactic looks like it's gonna work, and that the attackers have to wheel to get to the nearest modal I feel beardy. It's like I've turned into a rule lawyer and I'm always end up having to pull out the rule book to prove what I had said. And even then I get that picture 66.1 - Skirmishers Charging (a) pointed out to me so I end up allowing my opponant to..... are you begining to see the pattern . It's a very difficult tactic for me to use.

Just make sure you have a unit champion in you CoR unit so that when he challenges with his sorceress you just accept with the champ and leave your oldblood to wreak havoc on his knights

I said the same thing to my brother so he replyed "the Champion isn't going to live for long anyway since I can target him with my magic. If that doesn't work then my Assasin is gonna jump out and get him" . Maybe not his exact words but he did mention them. Sometimes I think he's bullying me .

Anyway what would be the best weapon for my Carnosaur riding Old-blood to use? I've always equipt them with the blade of realities but they don't seem to do any damage (9 leadership hurts), and since there are no Hydra's I want to put that weapon away. BTW the burning blade of chotec is being used by my BSB Scar Veteran Cold One Rider.

Remember that an assassin can be only be in on-foot units. So don't fear assassins in the knights or dark riders

 

[Celticfire]

Thanks mate, this makes a whole more sense. Abit dangorous because the pursuer's I'm up against are Cavalry, so they will roll 3d6 dice when pursueing. More then likely the Skinks will get overrun but that's no big deal. The only issue is that the Cavalry manages to hit something behind the Skinks. BTW I know they have to pursue the Skinks, but can they go for other units as well if they were to clip another unit?

I think there is a missunderstood... When the enemy cavalry charge it moves full distance (14" for coldone knights) not 3d6"... and generally they catch the skinks... and you lose about 70-80 pst... but in that position they give their flanks to your main unit/units... and if you destroy that cavalry unit with flank charge you can gain 200+ points ... thats the deal...

They must follow skinks... and if there is another friendly unit on pursuing path (not the first charge path) they can charge tahat unit according to "Enemy on the way" rule...

Example if another friendly unit is next to right of the main unit (in the first picture) , enemy can charge the new unit, but can not charge the main unit...

(My english not soo good sorry about that...I need more practice)

You do know that the "enemy on the way" rule was 6th edition, not 7th, right? Or are you talking about the pursuit into a fesh enemy? the way you describe it sounds like the redirect into an enemy that is not in your pursuit path, which is not possible.

 

[Azactoth]

If enemy unit (Red cavalry) declare charge to skirmishers, and skirmisher screen declare flee as a charge reaction, charging unit can charge "unit 2" (if it can reach unit 2) but it cant charge "unit 1"...

 

[Celticfire]

ah sorry, i did not understand you, pictures make evrything better.

 

[Azactoth]

ah sorry, i did not understand you, pictures make evrything better.

As I say I need more practice on English...

 

[EZR-Aeron]

i play dark elf so here are some things to watch out for: (ive taking a liking to lizzies lately )

-we shoot alot, RBT and RXB can get up to 50 shots per turn so your skink and saurus better watch out.
-assassins can bring down almost anything really. theyll either be in BG, spearman or sometimes shades.
-we field BG 6 or 7 across so fight them with high armoured units (prolly TG) since theyre only str4. but they get rerolls for every attack each turn so like 9-13 rerolls at WS5 ouch....
-DR will target your skinks since you have no "normal" war machines like RBT, catapults etc.
-vs terradons well prolly block you with harpies
-ring of hotek and null talismans can go with any unit, not just characters
-the entire army has hatred vs all armies

theres just a few things to note. this is my first post on here. wooot.... lol

 

[slannfrog]

What is the best Weapon take for an Oldblood w/ Carnosaur against DE's?

Right now I use the 7 attack, 1+ armour, 5+ ward build...but i don't know how effective it'll be against DE's.
If I take the Blade of Realities I'll have a good armour save but no ward and that is fatal against any DE character or assasin.

 

[Caneghem]

What is the best Weapon take for an Oldblood w/ Carnosaur against DE's?

Right now I use the 7 attack, 1+ armour, 5+ ward build...but i don't know how effective it'll be against DE's.
If I take the Blade of Realities I'll have a good armour save but no ward and that is fatal against any DE character or assasin.

Depends on how many hydras your opponent takes. BoR will almost always relieve a hydra of its soul, given its poor leadership of 6 and the fact your Lord will hit it on 3's. As for assassins... well don't use your Lord against them! You'd be surprised though.. while you don't have a ward save against his killing blow, there is NO save against blade of realities. Absolutely none, just a single failed leadership test and HIS lord dies. If you are a DE general, are you going to pick a fight with the one enemy model that can kill your unkillable lord?

Proper use of skinks against DE is key, as they are a cheap enough throw away unit to cheaply exploit the hatred rule of forced pursuit.

Don't forget to pack your terradons!

EDIT: Just thought of one last thing... the 7 attacks Lord winds up being best at killing just plain infantry. Going against Dark Elves, this makes the prime targets of your Carno Lord (enemy blocks) relatively unsafe, as the assassin threat will be pretty much right in his face in all combats. A 5+ ward is ok, but it is by no means dependable. And just thinking about the number of points you lose on that failed roll, it is still not worth the risk. His cost +100 points for a dead general isn't exactly the greatest risk/reward scenario. Besides, why not just shoot the little buggers into oblivion? For a hammer unit against them, you're better off going with a steg or some cavalry, since at least you won't lose a character.

On the other hand, there is no unit in your army that can easily wipe out a hydra in one round, and they really can cause a lot of problems for everything else in your army. The OB with BoR can easily wipe these guys out, and he even has a chance of killing the "unkillable" lord type characters.

 

[slannfrog]

Caneghem: Well said! Thanks.
That write up helped a lot. I'll test out the BoR.