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7th Ed. Liz VS High elf match up???

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Sharp

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Hello Lads

Need some general advice vs high elfs. The next warhammer torny im entered in I will be a playing a high elf's who I have grudged, long story why I have but it will be a great match I don't get to play very often and only played 1 game vs the new high elf.

So some advice on this match up I can't comment on what I'm taking as I'm not really sure what I'm taking just yet. But his list is a little unchanged from what i can tell.

Normaly takes a very heavy magic list with a level 4 and 2 level 2's and BSB, also takes 2 units of D princes, block of white lions, 2 blocks of 10 archers, some normal chariots 2 bolt throwers and 2 eagles.

So not much CR huge out put of shootyness and magic with all the tricks. and fast combat units to mop up whats left as far as i can tell nasty!
 
Hey,

I play both high elves and lizards so I believe I can be of service.

Looks like he plays quite a shooty/fast list. To counter it I'd probably take something like

Slann in unit of temple guard
engine of the gods
additional skink priest goodness
2 - 3 x 10 skink skirmishers
terradon riders
the rest is up to you.

The slann in unit of temple guard should effectively stop his dragon princes in their tracks. You're unlikely to fail stubborn leadership 9 without going against a fear causing enemy. And the slann (LVL4), engine (effective LVL3) and the other priests should stop most of his magic. The skinks are there to harass his archers and the like - terradon riders should be able to handle the RBT's without too many issues, and the engines ward save should stop shooting.

Some things to keep in mind - high elves do not do well against stegadons - so if you feel you really need to make a point just take a bunch of these puppies and you'll be sweet. (This method is not likely to make you any friends though).

Saurus warriors absolutely CHEW through high elf infantry. (sallies can be good for this too)

Any further questions please do not hesitate to scream.
 
The one thing to be careful of is that accursed 'Always Strikes First' BS, which is sort of redundant due to our urine-quality Initiative. At any rate, watch out for units of Spearmen. They get attack in 3 ranks, so you may be facing 30 or more attacks from him. They're just Elf attacks, but there's 30 of them nonetheless.
 
I've found that it's not really an issue. Saurus warriors with spears will take on swordmasters and win.
 
asrodrig said:
The one thing to be careful of is that accursed 'Always Strikes First' BS, which is sort of redundant due to our urine-quality Initiative. At any rate, watch out for units of Spearmen. They get attack in 3 ranks, so you may be facing 30 or more attacks from him. They're just Elf attacks, but there's 30 of them nonetheless.
Click to expand...

Wow how has your opponent managed to pull 30 attacks from a spearmen unit? Imrol, my elven general, is itching to know so he can boost his spearmen up. :P

The way I see it, if you run the unit 6x3 (fairly common) with a unit champion you get 19 attacks. That is pretty reasonable, but a unit of saurus only 5 across gets more than that with 21 attacks, at a higher strength with higher toughness and better armour.

The most I have seen is the 7x3 lothern seaguard setup, these lads get to stand and shoot with 7 arrows then strike first with 21 attacks for a total of 28 s3 attacks. IF they get charged, and if it is from a S&S range. My opponents tend to just move up close since the 7 arrows are generally doing stuff all on their own and make me charge them.

Anyway that is getting a bit off track. Saurus will have no trouble beating spearmen, but it doesn't look like there will be any of them in the list anyway. White Lions are a bit tougher, bit have little armour so my guess is that while they will strike first with a dangerous s6 and kill a fair few, they still will die when the saurus spearmen hit back.

Definitely take terradons to deal with the bolt throwers, and some skirmishing skinks if need be. Magic defence will be important because that is a fair bit of magic from the HE player. If you can throw out a bit of magic of oyur own, getting rid of those dragon princes before they hit home is very important since they hurt.
 
Thanks lads.

What about eagles?

Im thinking of takeing now befor you rip my army to bits our torny seen is allot more comp friendly than most so taking the hardest options wont win me any friends and will probably be asked to be re-submitted ;) so no EoTG'(S).

I don't like the EotG I think its a fairly easy to take off the priest on top and my comp will get nailed if I took one anyway so might as well use a normal steg. This is just how I think, I see allot of them about and don't have a prob playing vs one.

slann BSB holding the wardrums with 16 TG with +D6 charge banner
Skink P with Cloak and DOP
Jagvet
18 spears
2 x 10 skinks with pipes
16 skinks 2 krox cohort
3 krox
normal steg
3 terradons
2 x 1 sals
 
I am not an expert so take this as you see fit.

Terrain is going to play a big factor for you. i don't know how your upcoming tournament does terrain but I'd be especially keen on 2 things. Soft cover for your Salamanders and no hills for him.

I think the key for you is gaining magic superiority as early as possible. You've got a similar level of magic so it would, in theory, only take killing/scaring off a mage to tip the scale. As I see it, he has 3 places to really put his mages, his archer blocks, white lions, or by themselves. He could put them with the BT but that seems dicey to me.

If he hides them in the spear block I'd be very tempted to try and assassinate them with the JagVet. They would start at +2 in combat rez but even if he fails to kill enough to win, he'll probably hold. I'd also hit them with as much salamander fire as I could muster. Make him roll those panic checks. With an archmage general, his leadership isn't anything too impressive.

He isn't gonna sit around and take it, obviously, but I think your combat units are superior to his and you have more than he does for better positioning. The game will come down to, assuming no major blunders, how quickly you can destroy his fire base.
 
Just know that swordmasters are weak to shooting, salamanders and skinks go great versus them. White lions have much better save versus shooting. White lions.. humm harder unit to beat in combat. Seen 10 of these guys destroy entire units and treemans all the like. So either trust your impact hits or try to avoid them.

Dragonprinces... well sallies won't work, neither metal, fire or light, Immune to flaming.. which can be a pain.

You can take heavens with slann.. a comet on his BT's, Uranos on horses and forked on archers, together with a reroll to hit and wound in combat, celestial shield is usefull too.
Heavens is rather usefull versus High Elves

Rest has been said. Cold Ones are nice, to take care of dragon princes 'huanchi's". ASF on S3 is nothing...
Just be sure to bring enough dispell dice and don't let drain magic through...

Also need to know that if a lord on star dragon charges your Temple Guards( frontwise), you have a good chance of beating him by CR. Not that is of any use if he goes heavy magic....
 
Sharp said:
What about eagles?
Click to expand...

The eagle will have no warmachine crew or the like to attack, so chances are it will stay out of combat and try to march block you or maybe get in front of you and redirect your charges. If an eagle stops at an angle in front of one of your units, don't charge it or the unit will be screwed next turn. Either try to go around it, or get close then hit it with magic or shooting. They die easily.

I have also heard among the generals of the elven host that they quite fancy the chances of an eagle in combat against terradon riders. There isn't really a whole lot you can do if he tries to do that because you don't really want to risk the terradons fleeing off the board, just try to kill the eagle early and keep your terradons out of its LoS. It can only see to the front while terradons can see 360 degrees.
 
Thanks guys.

Yes I would hide the dons in woods till they where able to get in a position to do some dmg. With 6 units with a speed of 18-20 getting at the borderline bolt throwers would be hard.

A guy posted on the local forum that heavens was a useless lore for the skinks. I find that i am only casting potent and thats all i need to be casting. I think its a great set of magic as the first spell helps so much with support.
 
Sharp, I admire you're resolve not to take an Engine, but I do ask that you realize it's quite a risk vs. something that shooty and with Dragon Princes? Do keep in mind it will allow your Temple Guard to make it to the front lines with more then half a unit and also the Engine obliterates Dragon Princes like nobody's business. Just food for thought, and if people duck your comp score for ONE Engine, that's just obnoxious, oh, and to protect the skink on top, give him Glyph necklace, tends to do the trick for me. So there's some food for thought, take care and good luck.
 
Cheers mate.

I could take a EotG but comp makes up a good size of the overall score. 120 for battle(0-20 per game x 6 games) 60 for comp 25 for sports and 32 for painting. In the 2 tornys i have played with 30ish players in each my comps been right in the middle, Happy to post my list if people want it.

Now if I get the same comp that I have been getting 3 and 3.5 out of 5 so should come out with a 36-42 of the 60 comp points. If that drooped to 2 of 5 that's 24 of 60 for comp meaning I would be dropping 12-18 points! Meaning i would have to win 1 more game with the harder list to make up the difference. And i would turn my normal steg into the EotG.
 
You should not lose any comp for a single engine though... Are you sure your opponents would hit you for it? It would be quite harsh to give you a comp hit for just one engine... It really is quite balanced since the priest is quite easy to kill, as long as you don't have multiple engines which I am sure you don't.
 
Nothing wrong with a single EotG. It's a unit that is perfectly legal in our army. Can it be taken advantage of? Of course, and bringing multiple EotG is a pretty cheap tactic that you should get your comp score knocked for. If someone knocks your comp score for an EotG, I guess that means you can do the same for someone who takes a dragon, hydra, giant or any other single powerful large target monster.
 
Hahaha

And its not one EotG but the combination of a EotG and a Slann.

The NZ and AUS torny seen has tryed very hard to cut the cheese out of the tournaments and it has worked before numbers where dropping and moving to other systems now there coming back big time.

It is not a peer based system but a panel judged comp. 8 judges who are not playing the torny will judge the lists and give a -2 to +2 on the base score of the army, the top and bottom score will be droped and the rest added up.

Lizardmen are rated as tier 3 army. Sitting on a base of 7 points if i where to score a flat 0 from all 8 judges i would get a comp score of 7 x 6 = 42 out of 60.(my hasty comp math before was wrong).
 
What lore do you guys rekon is best vs these helfs ?
 
I think it comes down to the list. For a dragon I would look at beasts. MSU probably death.
 
Seems to me like an EotG is a great accent for a Slann mage. Making that cheesy seems like saying telling a dwarf player that he can take an organ gun or cannon, but not both. It just makes the LM list more powerful in the magic phase.

I'm not trying to agure the way tournaments are done in NZ/AU at all, it's just a totally foreign concept to me here. It sounds like a pretty strict comp system.
 
"I have also heard among the generals of the elven host that they quite fancy the chances of an eagle in combat against terradon riders. There isn't really a whole lot you can do if he tries to do that because you don't really want to risk the terradons fleeing off the board, just try to kill the eagle early and keep your terradons out of its LoS. It can only see to the front while terradons can see 360 degrees."

Another advantage of Terradons... they don't need to see their target before moving if all they want to do is drop rocks. The Eagle can never be within 20" of the Terradons, or it will die. Honestly with all the poison toting skinks in the army, the Eagle would be pretty easy to shoot down. I don't really like the survivability odds of Great Eagles against Lizardmen...
 
Every elf player knows that the eagle has no armour at all and while it is tougher than the bulk of the army, it still only has average toughness. It is a fragile creature and a single magic missile usually spells doom so the player must use it well and either knowingly sacrifice it for hopefully a good cause or keep it protected. Or, for the less experienced player, drop it.

You are right that there is a lot of poison that would screw the eagle though, even a unit of humble skink skirmishers could probably bring it down if it wasn't careful. It would have a lot less places to hide, and with no war machines in the LM army arguable a lot less use against LM than other armies. I would agree that terradons charging the eagle will more than likely kill it, it would depend on which got the charge though. In my experience the eagle always survives longer than it statistically should unless I am throwing it away.
 
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