8th Ed. Life Slann - How do you use Throne of Vines?

[gapton]

2 weeks ago I completed a newbie tournament and came in 4th

Most opponent would choose not to waste their dispell dice on Throne of Vines, so I got many powerful spells off and with units like tough 6 skinks or tough 8 saurus, and so many free hits from Shield of Thorns, close combat against their elite troops wasn't as bad as I first anticipated.

Last week I played with my buddy who had seen the awesomeness of Lore of Life, and being scared to his bone (he plays TK), he almost dispell my throne of vines every time, and even used a dispell scroll on it one turn.

So since I lack experience with the mind-game of casting vs dispelling, I want to see how would veteran players cast Throne of Vines?

Do you guys cast it with minimal dice, just to lure your opponent to waste some dispell dice?

Or would you cast it with more dice to try to make him think it is not worth dispelling?

The way I think about it is, understanding how powerful Throne of Vines is, if I was playing against a Life Slann I would ALWAYS attempt to dispell it. So casting with 1 dice + 1 free dice sounds like a really good way to reduce the number of dispell dice available to him.

Do you cast it as the first spell or would you try to sneak in something BEFORE casting Throne?

For example, you need to protect a unit that is in combat, you want Flesh to Stone on it. Will you cast it before or after Throne of Vines?

Before : you may sneak a +2 Toughness since your opponent might want to save his dice for Throne/Dwellers

After : lure your opponent to dispell Throne, if he failed, great. even if he succeeded, he now has less dice, so you can hope to get 2 - 3 spells off successfully, even if it means the unboosted version.

How do you guys play out this mind game? Also, I try to use remain in play spells as a way to force my opponent to think more carefully about how they use their casting dice. So if possible I would really get Throne and Shield out as early as possible.

 

[Irish_Lizard]

Personally by not taking taking a life slann in the first place.

Playing against the life slann in TG is rather easy, stop throne of vines and sooner or later he will blow his unit to kingdom come with one miscast. Life can only really help one unit a turn (flesh to stone) so kill whatever isnt T8 and when you need to go for the bunker itself just scroll the flesh to stone.

Throne is prioritized based on how many dice are thrown to cast it and what the score is. assuming a 7 vs 5 split if you 5 dice throne I will let it go and stop everything else and give up 2 of my own power dice next turn to dispel it. Otherwise if you roll low on 3 dice or only roll 2 I will probably stop it with 3 dice and one other spell. One unboosted life spell is pretty meh for a whole magic phase.

 

[david l]

Against a Life caster, I usually let Throne of Vines go. Mostly I stop it when the Life caster has a good target for Dwellers and 6+ dice remaining. When that isn't the case, allow Throne of Vines and stop Flesh to Stone.

 

[Stonecutter]

Irish and David have provided some very good examples of the situational decision that needs to be made with regard to stopping throne of vines. Essentially, the decision rests on what other spells are out there that could either really hurt one of your units either directly (dwellers) or indirectly (flesh to stone on a unit that is in an important combat).

Of note, keep in mind that ToV is a remains in play and thus can be dispelled "at any point in a subsequent magic phase" [p. 36]. Thus, a rather dirty skaven trick that I learned on the receiving end is to allow it off in one turn and leave it RiP. Most players will then cast with wild abandon and when they get the IF casting, the other player immediately dispels ToV. The spell is still resolved but with ToV gone, a roll now must be made on the miscast table.

 

[david l]

when they get the IF casting, the other player immediately dispels ToV. The spell is still resolved but with ToV gone, a roll now must be made on the miscast table.

I have never encountered a person in real life that would allow that. If ToV was up when the miscast roll happened, its affects apply (ignore miscast on 2+). Yes you can argue the rules allow your interpretation, but, again, I have never met a person that would attempt that sort of &%*#$ argument in a real game. For a bunch of people, an opponent claiming your interpretation would be a "pack up my army and go home" moment.

 

[Rhodium]

Of note, keep in mind that ToV is a remains in play and thus can be dispelled "at any point in a subsequent magic phase" [p. 36]. Thus, a rather dirty skaven trick is to allow it off in one turn and leave it RiP. Most players will then cast with wild abandon and when they get the IF casting, the other player immediately dispels ToV. The spell is still resolved but with ToV gone, a roll now must be made on the miscast table.

Like Irish, I never actually play with a life slann, but if this happened to me:

At the club, where everyone knows each other, I'd let everyone know what he is trying and tell him that's bull, the miscast protection was up when the spell was cast, you can dispell throne after but when the miscast occurred, throne was up and the protection is there because you can interrupt the spell sequence I,e
Roll, miscast, miscast protection then free to dispell, this isn't MtG and you can't interrupt the spell sequence

At a tournament, I would call over the TO and ask for a ruling, 99% confident they would rule in my favour, for the above reason

 

[Stonecutter]

I figured that interpretation of dispelling ToV "at any point" would raise a few hackles and having learned it the hard way by being on the receiving end, I agree it is quite unsporting. However, the call was supported by the TO and I ate the miscast and killed a bunch of TG in the subsequent minor detonation. Having thought about it afterwards, I do agree with the interpretation although I don't use it myself since it is unsporting and takes away the fun of the game.

 

[gapton]

I figured that interpretation of dispelling ToV "at any point" would raise a few hackles and having learned it the hard way by being on the receiving end, I agree it is quite unsporting. However, the call was supported by the TO and I ate the miscast and killed a bunch of TG in the subsequent minor detonation. Having thought about it afterwards, I do agree with the interpretation although I don't use it myself since it is unsporting and takes away the fun of the game.

Woah I think it is pretty insane to allow such interpretation and allowing players to render the protection of Throne of Vines useless since it is so easy to dispell a 8+ RiP spell.

Personally I would say that is interrupting the whole casting process and should not be allowed. The whole idea of waiting for your opponent to have a miscast, then dispell his miscase protection immediately just sounds so wrong to me.

If someone do that to me I will just pack up and go, noting to self to never play him again. If I am in tournament maybe I will just surrender and say to him "congratz you win" and give him a zero for sportsmanship.

 

[JWK47]

I figured that interpretation of dispelling ToV "at any point" would raise a few hackles and having learned it the hard way by being on the receiving end, I agree it is quite unsporting. However, the call was supported by the TO and I ate the miscast and killed a bunch of TG in the subsequent minor detonation. Having thought about it afterwards, I do agree with the interpretation although I don't use it myself since it is unsporting and takes away the fun of the game.

Woah I think it is pretty insane to allow such interpretation and allowing players to render the protection of Throne of Vines useless since it is so easy to dispell a 8+ RiP spell.

Personally I would say that is interrupting the whole casting process and should not be allowed. The whole idea of waiting for your opponent to have a miscast, then dispell his miscase protection immediately just sounds so wrong to me.

If someone do that to me I will just pack up and go, noting to self to never play him again. If I am in tournament maybe I will just surrender and say to him "congratz you win" and give him a zero for sportsmanship.

This is the same problem that the CD Chalice of Darkness presents, in that you can use it at "any time" but there are no discrete steps inside phases so people think you can use it after casting but before dispel dice are cast. The problem is that WHFB has very poor sequencing when compared to a game like MtG where everything is strictly defined.

Ultimately every major tournament has ruled that spells are discrete events which occur as a cast then dispel process and you can't split it. Otherwise you have a stupid situation where the players have to race to roll the dice/announce actions first which is all kinds of messed up.

I would clarify this rule at any tournament I went to and refuse to attend if they ruled RiP dispelling and Chalice this way.

As for Throne of Vines, I don't use Life Slann, but in the mirror match I'd let it go everytime as the T, or a regen is irrelevant to how I'd kill a TG bunker.