8th Ed. Kroak/Temple Guard/Characters and Unbreakable Question

[NexS1]

Hi team,
Just had a thought... Kroak is unbreakable, and he is permitted to join TG because he makes them unbreakable.
Now It's just occurred to me that I can't put a scar vet or oldblood in the unit (very disappointing) because they are not unbreakable.
What about Chakax? Is he allowed in there? He has "Guardians" rule, but isn't technically Temple Guard.

Further, the rule says (from memory...): "If Lord Kroak joins a unit of Temple Guard, they get the unbreakable rule"
So does that mean you can have a scarvet/oldblood join the unit first (either deployed there first in order, or kroak joins in turn 1 after deployment), and the saurus character is part of the TG unit so therefore gains unbreakable, allowing him to be in the unit with unbreakable Kroak?

 

[Caprasauridae]

In the deployment rules it says "All characters must be deployed last, again taking up just one turn, but maybe set up in separate locations or units in their deployment zone." I have seen it being understood as you get to choose the order in which your characters come to play. This means that you can first put all the Scar-Vets, Oldbloods and other non-unbreakable (breakable?) characters into your Temple Guard and after that you can place Lord Kroak. When he is in place, no other non-unbreakable characters can join. I don't know how official this is and how it would go in the tournaments, as the rules don't straight allow you to decide the order (or, rather, there is no order...).

 

[NexS1]

The other option is to place Kroak behind the unit and move him into the unit turn 1.
Bit that still leaves question as to whether he is allowed to have other characters in the unit with him or not...

 

[heuningby]

Nitpicking people will argue that Kroak makes the unit unbreakable, thus the RnF models + command group not the characters who have joined. Chakax would be fine I guess as he basically confers the same ability

 

[hardyworld]

Extremely unofficial, but as discussed:

25) Q: Can other characters join Chakax and his unit of Temple Guard (besides the Slann), the unit is Unbreakable by the Ultimate Bodyguard special rule (pg. 55)? Can other characters join Lord Kroak and his unit of Temple Guard, the unit is Unbreakable by the Eternity Guardians special rule (pg. 52)? Can Chakax join a unit of Temple Guard with Lord Kroak?
A: No (unless the character is unbreakable), No (unless the character is unbreakable), & Yes. The Unbreakable rule (BRB pg. 78) states that "characters that are not themselves Unbreakable are not permitted to join units that are (even if a character was to become temporarily Unbreakable for some reason)." Chakax may join a unit containing Lord Kroak because his ability to become Unbreakable within the Temple Guard unit is not considered 'temporary'.

 

[NexS1]

I guess that all makes sense thanks!
Just means that I've either got to field chakax with Kroak (but that makes characters abilities to make the unit unbreakable redundant) or tool up the unit champ to win challenges...

 

[Malebranche]

Sorry to be a thread necromancer, but I noticed the rule for Kroak states "... all models in the combined unit...", does anyone else think this could mean it was intended for him to be able to join units of temple guard that already contain other characters? The Golden Death Mask also states "... or any unit he joins..."
I know these are tiny things, but it also seems strange that GW would expect us to rely on Kroak or unit champs to win challenges. I'd rather not haveunbreakable than lose Kroak to any half decent character then have the unit lose unbreakable anyway, and not being able to put a Scar-Vet or Oldblood in theremakes the -1 to hit far less interesting.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I know these are tiny things, but it also seems strange that GW would expect us to rely on Kroak or unit champs to win challenges. I'd rather not haveunbreakable than lose Kroak to any half decent character then have the unit lose unbreakable anyway, and not being able to put a Scar-Vet or Oldblood in theremakes the -1 to hit far less interesting.

Obviously we don't want our single S3 WS1 attack wielding relic priest in combat... though he is quite survivable against all but the most potent characters. A semi decent character will have a hard time getting by -1 to hit, toughness 5, 3+ ward and 6 wounds. If a nasty character comes a calling, just refuse the challenge if your champion is already dead.

 

[Qupakoco]

Sorry to be a thread necromancer, but I noticed the rule for Kroak states "... all models in the combined unit...", does anyone else think this could mean it was intended for him to be able to join units of temple guard that already contain other characters? The Golden Death Mask also states "... or any unit he joins..."

Completely agree. SV's and OB's in a unit of TG gain Unbreakable when joined by Kroak. At least as long as you play 8th edition.

The real question is what happens when all the TG die?!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Completely agree. SV's and OB's in a unit of TG gain Unbreakable when joined by Kroak. At least as long as you play 8th edition.

I used to be of the opinion that characters could join the unit (if placed before Kroak), but I no longer feel that way....

"Characters that are not themselves Unbreakable are not permitted to join units that are (even if a character was to become temporarily Unbreakable for some reason, because of a spell or suchlike)" -BRB pg. 78-

Scar-Vets and Oldbloods are not themselves Unbreakable. Even if we assume that they would gain Unbreakable when in a TG unit joined by Kroak, that would be a temporary effect (because they would lose it immediately upon leaving the unit, or the instance where Kroak was slain). The only argument against this is in terms of timing... at the time of joining the unit, the unit was not Unbreakable. So the characters didn't in fact join an unbreakable unit... even though they are now a part of one. Technically the rules don't specify that a character can't be a part of an unbreakable unit, only that he can't join one. Using pure RAW it might be justified, but it's a little sketchy in terms of good gamesmanship.

 

[Qupakoco]

I still disagree. Temple Guard aren't Unbreakable, so how does that work? The rule doesn't say "All Temple Guard gain Unbreakable" it says "All Models gain Unbreakable"

If he's already in the unit he gains it, IMO.

That's how I'll continue to play it until a FAQ comes out. Just another one of the several rule problems with our book :/

 

[Pinktaco]

Wait. Isn't the rule basically: If you want characters in the unit deploy them along side Kroak (since it's counts as one deployment so they all join at the same time?), but following that - if another character when the game begins would like to join - they cannot.

BTW what's the wording on stubborn? Isn't it the exact same or maybe Im' remembering wrong?

 

[Malebranche]

I still disagree. Temple Guard aren't Unbreakable, so how does that work? The rule doesn't say "All Temple Guard gain Unbreakable" it says "All Models gain Unbreakable"

If he's already in the unit he gains it, IMO.

That's how I'll continue to play it until a FAQ comes out. Just another one of the several rule problems with our book :/

I'm inclined to agree with this. The TG are gaining unbreakable too, and the rulebook says nothing about either joining a unit that will become unbreakable later or leaving a unit a character is already in if the unit temporarily becomes unbreakable.

I'll discuss it with my group anyway, but I personally think RAI is simply to stop shenanigans with characters joining unbreakable units mid-battle.

Of course, at the end of the day the whole debate could be easily settled by GW actually doing their jobs, but I think it's safe to say at this point that they wont be giving us a faq.

*edit* Does anyone know if there's an official ruling anywhere stating what special rules take effect before the game begins?

They just don't give a faq about us HAAAA

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

They just don't give a faq about us

Hahaha... nice!