8th Ed. Killing deamon princes

[Crillaz]

Eventually I will go up against a WOC opponent soon. And the demon prince problem have been occupying my mind for some time now.
This will be the first game against WOC for me and therefor I have never had to deal with it before.

I have been thinking about how to approach it.

Saurus old blood, CO, with fencers blade (ws10), glittering scales (-1 to hit), opal amulet (4++ first wound), other trixters shard (all in base contact re-rolls successful ward saves).

Nearby the old blood should be a skink chief with the egg ready to charge in as soon as the old blood and demon is in CC. Possibly also a stegadon with sharpened horns, but I think it will be tricky to fool the demon into a trap when the steg is nearby.

Anyway the demon would hit the old blood on sixes only. And the point is to hope for some luck with the egg and make it re-roll successful ward saves.

What do you think about it. It all comes to a cost of 334 points if the skink is on foot, 30 points more if on a terradon.
I guess that is cheaper then most of the demons out there and more so, if I loose an old blood in the process its not as painful for me then if the opponent loses his demon prince.

One more thing, I have read about the demons 3++ re-roll ones. How do you make it 3++? I can only see 5++ and the possibility to re-roll ones.

Thoughts? How would you do and what have you done that is successful?

/Crillaz

 

[Lizardmatt]

The daemon prince will hit on 5+.
WS9 hits WS10 on 4+, and the scales modify that to 5+.

What I like is:
Old Blood on Cold one (so you don't get stomped on)
Other Tricksters helm, Featherfoe Torc, Opal Amulet (re-roll to wound him, re-roll to hit him, and 1 use 4+ ward), armed with great weapon.

And/Or

Old Blood, Cold one
Armor of Destiny, dawnstone, other tricksters shard, great weapon (1+ armor with re-roll, 4+ward).


Personally, I like the first guy more, but you can take both!
Making your opponent re-roll successes seems to demoralize them.

-Matt

 

[Scalenex]

A Nurgle Prince will give you -1 to hit them. Nurgle Princes are the clear competitive choice. A Tzeentch Prince will improve the Ward save by one point and let them re-roll ones. They are the distant second to Nurgle Princes.

Slaanesh and Khorne Princes don't bring a whole lot to the table, they are fluff choices more than anything else.

 

[GCPD]

Don't forget that the usual Daemon Prince equipment is Sword of Striking, Dragonbane Gem and Charmed Shield. So even though you're WS10 with -1 to hit... he'll still be hitting you on 4s, wounding on 3s, then you've got a 1+ modified to 4+ and a single use 4+ ward save. That's not enough.

Conversely, despite your 6 attacks (likely 7 with PF) at WS 10 you'll still be only hitting on 4s because it will probably be a Nurgle Prince (so 3-4 hits), at S5 vs T5 you're only wounding on 4s (so 1-2 wounds), and then it has a 1+ armour save modified to 3+ before you get to the ward. Conclusion: its going to kill you long before you can kill it.

To kill a Daemon Prince in combat, there's two potential avenues: one is to go as tough as possible and tank it out. Like Lizardmatt says, load up on stuff that will make it re-roll against you. Or go Armour of Destiny and Dawn Stone (1+ re-rollable modified to 4+, with a 4+ ward - add potion of Strength, Potion of Toughness or Other Trickster's Shard as you see fit), or Sacred Stegadon Helm with Talisman of Preservation and Other Trickster's Shard (T6 with a 1+/4++). Always have him on a Cold One to ignore stomps, and always have a Great Weapon - you'll be hitting on 5s, but significantly reducing armour saves and with OTS forcing re-rolls of wards. He's unlikely to kill you and sooner or later you'll get enough wounds through to bring it down (~1 every round of combat). This is the attrition approach.

The other option is to be a little tanky but extremely killy. Potion of Strength/Piranha Blade/Dawn Stone/Shield, Cold One is, imho, really your best bet. A 4+ re-rollable armour save and no stomps, and for one round you'll be S8. Even only hitting on 5s, you should get two wounds onto him before Wards. This approach sacrifices the reliability of the tanky one for an extremely reasonable chance of killing it outright; therefore significantly reducing the chance that it'll get lucky and heal all the wounds you do it back up with Soulfeeder, and perhaps more importantly freeing your Oldblood up to continue running around flipping tables.

 

[GCPD]

Slaanesh and Khorne Princes don't bring a whole lot to the table, they are fluff choices more than anything else.

Slaaneshi Princes seem to be getting extremely popular due to the Lore of Slaanesh - or more accurately, Cacaphonic Choir - especially where Nurgle Death Princes are heavily comped (although, that being said, Slaaneshi level 4 Sorcerers on a Carpet are probably more common).

All told, the Nurgle Daemon Prince's ferocity in combat is probably the least of our worries, from a Lizardmen perspective. Even your regular Scar-Vet Cowboy can do a reasonable job of tanking him out for a few rounds whilst you focus on the rest of his list, and its fairly easy to manage through use of steadfast infantry and unit champions. The real danger is likely to be Lore of Death - Caress, Fate and Spirit Leech are hell to Skink characters, Spirit Leech can be threatening to Saurus characters (because, hey, why would Saurus have leadership 9? ), and Purple Sun is... well, there's no way that I can explain how insanely unfair Purple Sun is to Lizardmen armies without resorting to bad language, so lets leave it at that (but there's no guaruntee they can get Purple Sun, right? What's that, they can have 5 spells from any Lore? Oh).

 

[Crillaz]

The daemon prince will hit on 5+.
WS9 hits WS10 on 4+, and the scales modify that to 5+.

You are right, I read on the to wound chart before. My bad.

It feels like the egg is even more relevant if it is a nurgle daemon since to hit doesn't matter.

So if I go withCO, GW, armor of destiny, dawnstone and OTS. Combined with a chief with the egg. Will it take it down quick enough? Before other units joins the combat.

/crillaz

 

[GCPD]

The daemon prince will hit on 5+.
WS9 hits WS10 on 4+, and the scales modify that to 5+.

You are right, I read on the to wound chart before. My bad.

It feels like the egg is even more relevant if it is a nurgle daemon since to hit doesn't matter.

So if I go withCO, GW, armor of destiny, dawnstone and OTS. Combined with a chief with the egg. Will it take it down quick enough? Before other units joins the combat.

/crillaz

I love the egg. I think its a brilliant item that falls into that happy balance between being useful without OP. Sometimes its going to be silly and do nothing, and sometimes its going to wreck face.

That being said, it can do nothing. Even if you roll the good result, the average number of wounds against something T5 is only 3. Its then got to beat a modified 3+ armour save and the 5+ re-rollable ward. It has a chance, but arguably you need more luck than the Oldblood will do on his own.

I'm also not sure how this would work in practice. If your Oldblood and the Prince are in combat, then they are almost certainly in a challenge and in that case I'm not sure if the Egg could be cracked.

 

[Crillaz]

The daemon prince will hit on 5+.
WS9 hits WS10 on 4+, and the scales modify that to 5+.

You are right, I read on the to wound chart before. My bad.

It feels like the egg is even more relevant if it is a nurgle daemon since to hit doesn't matter.

So if I go withCO, GW, armor of destiny, dawnstone and OTS. Combined with a chief with the egg. Will it take it down quick enough? Before other units joins the combat.

/crillaz

I love the egg. I think its a brilliant item that falls into that happy balance between being useful without OP. Sometimes its going to be silly and do nothing, and sometimes its going to wreck face.

That being said, it can do nothing. Even if you roll the good result, the average number of wounds against something T5 is only 3. Its then got to beat a modified 3+ armour save and the 5+ re-rollable ward. It has a chance, but arguably you need more luck than the Oldblood will do on his own.

I'm also not sure how this would work in practice. If your Oldblood and the Prince are in combat, then they are almost certainly in a challenge and in that case I'm not sure if the Egg could be cracked.

I need to get the charge (somehow), with both the OB and the skink. Shouldn't be a problem with the skink if I put him on a terradon. I choose which fight goes first. Since the daemon is in base contact with OTS I can start with the skink and pop the egg. After that the chief will be killed of course but maybe he has taken the beast down a wound or two or maybe more if I am lucky. Then its the OB turn to take over.

Maybe it won't work at all, just trying to find a way to deal with him when I meet WOC.

/Crillaz

 

[GCPD]

Do Egg attacks go before challenges are issued? That's the only way that you'll be able to pull that combo off.

 

[hdctambien]

Do Egg attacks go before challenges are issued? That's the only way that you'll be able to pull that combo off

The Egg gets cracked "At the start of any Close Combat Phase" and challenges are issued "at the start of the combat round". The combat "Phase" is made up of multiple combat "rounds" (BRB page 46: Close Combat Phase Sequence)

So technically the egg goes off before you choose a combat to resolve (and therefore before anyone can declare a challenge for that combat). Even if the first combat you resolve is NOT the combat that involves the egg, the egg should be the first thing you resolve at the start of the combat round.

 

[Putzfrau]

Do Egg attacks go before challenges are issued? That's the only way that you'll be able to pull that combo off.

Seeing your sig always makes me happy.

 

[rantapanda]

Hahaa today was a good day
OB+CO+dawnstone+GW+AoDestiny and Chief with Egg killed a Demon Prince of Nurgle
Egg managed to do 3 wounds and the rest was a teethgrinding grinding untill the OB finally stopped fluffing his attacks and did the last wound in. Twice the OB was almost about to die with one wound left and saved by 4+ ward.
Prince would have died sooner but I completely forgot that I had the other tricksters shard.
Anyways the 600points prince died so was good : D

Otherwise the match was a draw since my steggies were failing charges or fluffing them all day long.
Slann tempested the hellcannon almost every turn which was awesome and spirit leech sniped that three headed monster thingy very nicely so it all ended up in a draw but i take it!

 

[GhostWarrior]

The hardest thing about the DP is engaging him in a way that is in your favor:

Say you do have a CO Cowboy (ideally and Oldblood) who is kitted to be able to take out a DP in 1-2 rounds of combat. My favorite build is the following:

Oldblood on CO, Piranha Blade, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield

The variability of a D3 wound causing weapon can make something like a DP (with only 4 wounds) shiver. But again, say you've got such a build:

The problem is engaging the Daemon Prince in a favorable way. I'm imagining that most players who are going for an optimal build choose 1 of 2 marks - Nurgle or Slaanesh. In neither case do you want to engage these guys solo, because unless you can kill them on the turn you charge in, they'll get a shot at hitting you with a spell (while in combat!) that can kill anything we've got - Purple Sun in the case of the Nurgle guy (50/50 chance to die), and Cacophonic Choir for the Slaanesh dude (2D6 hits that wound on 4+ with no AS). Note that the smart Slaanesh DP player has the Other Trickster's Shard on and not the Sword of Striking. In this way, when he singles out tough targets with Cac, while in Close Combat with them, they will have to re-roll their Ward Saves. Also note that the attacks from the Slaanesh DP are naturally Armour Piercing - a pretty good combo with Str 6.

The Smart DP player uses his 20" move to make sure that the only way a Cowboy can engage him, is by solo-charging. If you can somehow engage him with a unit that has the Cowboy in it, you are in much better shape - neither of those DP builds can single out a model within a unit with their scariest spells (though in the case of PSun, it requires a successful look-out roll). Please note that just any unit won't do - it'll need to be one that has at least 5 rank-and-file, and hopefully more then that. That means it's harder (without spending lots of points) to make a cold one unit viable for this tactic.

I will note that I have also faced both the Khorne DP and the Tzeentch DP, albeit with my HE army. The Tzeentch DP will likely spend most all of the game avoiding combat and Magic Missiling your troops (starting with the monsters). The Khorne guy could be scarier (Str 7 in Rd1 on the charge means something, for sure), but I've got to believe that 90-95+% of you who face a DP won't have to worry about either of these guys - the Khorne guy in particular b/c he doesn't cast.

 

[slann5]

i have changed my list many times and didnt want to go the bus list death star etc. So the way i kill DP is put the slann in a unit of skinks behind another unit of skinks just 10 then when he wins and over runs to your slann on your go charge him with 2 stegadons, no rolls to hits just impact hits before combat, hope this helps.

 

[Zwuppie]

Deamon Princes aren't slainable with only a oldblood or scar-veteran cowboy! Those things have to be encountered by multiple units, unit saurus warriors to hold him and then charge with a stegadon or something! But NEVER EVER fight solo, you will always lose!

 

[Pinktaco]

Deamon Princes aren't slainable with only a oldblood or scar-veteran cowboy! Those things have to be encountered by multiple units, unit saurus warriors to hold him and then charge with a stegadon or something! But NEVER EVER fight solo, you will always lose!

How much strength does these guys have? Our old lood can have 1+ armour, with reroll and a 4+ ward, immune to stomp ad well.

 

[Lizardmatt]

I like to pair my old blood with a hero with MR.
MR2 lets the Old Blood Shrug off almost all magic (sans a purple sun).

The pair is still cheaper than the daemon prince, and can split up and still be effective against armies that aren't in need of prince toppling.

-Matt

 

[GhostWarrior]

How much strength does these guys have? Our old lood can have 1+ armour, with reroll and a 4+ ward, immune to stomp ad well.

Strength 6 with 5 attacks and a superior WS (9). The most common DP build is:

Lvl 4 of X with flying, 1+ AS, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane Gem, Soul Stealer (heal wounds on 6's in combat), Chaos Familiar (+1 to channel and 1 additional spell), and 1 additional magic item. That magic item is either the Sword of Striking or the OTS, depending on the player.

The X is either Nurgle with Lore of Death or Slaanesh with Lore of Slaanesh.

The Nurgle guy makes us -1 to hit in CC (so 5's generally for our Oldbloods/Scar Vets) and the Slaanesh guy has Armor Piercing attacks (making our 1+ a 5+).

My regular WoC opponent runs the Slaanesh guy with OTS - so when I fight him, he gets 5 attacks that hit on 3's and wound on 3's - my save goes to a 5+ and I have to re-roll my wards - very feasible to sneak 3 wounds in within 1 round - and if I don't kill him back, he'll go first in the next round too!

Without buffs coming into play on either side, it's a relatively even fight (between an Oldblood of just about any competitive setup and any of the DP builds above) - one which some slightly off-balanced dice in either direction could spell the doom of the other. If the DP player senses that it is such an even match, then he'll do everything in his power to avoid that matchup (too much risk for him, generally), until it is in his favor.

And to what Zwuppie was saying - the real threat to us is that both of those DP builds can kill us with spells whilst engaged in combat with our Characters!

For example, don't be fooled by a solo-overrun into the DP in your own turn, unless you've set it up to fight again right then (by engaging the DP with something else, and playing that fight second). You may think you've 'got him' only for him to turn around and Purple Sun or Cacophonic Choir the OB out of existence in his ensuing magic phase (choir being the worse of the 2 if he has the OTS!).

 

[Zwuppie]

That magic item is either the Sword of Striking or the OTS, depending on the player.

Depending on the player.. Always look to allround lists!

Mostly you see Nurgle Princes with Sword of Striking and the items GhostWarrior mentioned before..

The idea to slay a 400+ points daemonprince with a 250 points character is a bit ironic, always multicharge!
You can overrun into a daemonprince if it is in his turn, but please be sure that in the next movementphase before enemy hits are resolved at your oldblood another unit also charges the daemon prince and assist your oldblood! Never issue a challenge! Those 3 points of static combat resolution because of a unit of suarus warriors won't help you win the battle