AoS KC 2000pts - Kroq Gar is back !

[N3mesis]

I recently converted an old metal Kroq Gar, and I want to make a list around him.
The goal is to have something which not necessarily competitive but still quite correct on the table, with a good variety of unit.
I'm also trying to keep the list a bit coherent lore wise.

Currently I'm leaning into Koatl Claw for subfaction, it seems more suited for Kroq-Gar.
I know that the slann of Koatl Claw is supposed to be (nearly) dead, but mine is painted in a ghostly manner so I will still include one and pretend it's an astral projection or a ghost of Lord Quex

Kroq-Gar is represented by the Oldblood on Carnosaur.
Grymloq has the Beastmaster mount trait to make him more nasty than a standard carnosaur and I also gave the Blade of Realities artefact to Kroq-Gar so that his spear is more worthy to be the Revered Spear of Tlanxla.
It's also crucial, because it will be my only source of rend -2 ! (but at 3 or 4 damages flat, it can hopefully make some holes).
The Hand of Gods however is just the standard Sunbolt Gauntlet...

Here is the list :

Spoiler: List 1 (more "competitive")

------------------------------------------------------------
Constellation : Koatl Claw
Triumph : Inspired
Grand Strategy : Beast Master
------------------------------------------------------------

** Battle Regiment (Unified) **
Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur : 270pts
- Artefact : Blade of Realities
- Mount Trait : Beastmaster

Skink Starpriest : 130pts
- Spells : Hand of Glory

5 Saurus Knights : Celestite Spears : 110pts

5 Saurus Knights : Celestite Spears : 110pts

5 Saurus Knights : Celestite Spears : 110pts

5 Saurus Guards : 115pts

Bastiladon : Solar Engine : 250pts

Engine of the Gods : 265pts
- Prayers : Curse

** Command Entourage (Magnificient : Artefact) **
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur : Celestite Warpsear : 215pts
- Artefact : Eviscerating Blade

Slann Starmaster : 265pts
- Command Trait : Arcane Might
- Spells : Celestial Equilibrium

Skink Starseer : 145pts
- Spells : Tide of Serpents

TOTAL : 1985pts

Spoiler: List 2 (more "fluffy")

------------------------------------------------------------
Constellation : Koatl Claw
Triumph : Inspired
Grand Strategy : Beast Master
------------------------------------------------------------
** Battle Regiment (Unified) **
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur : Celestite Warspear : 215pts
- Artefact : Eviscerating Blade

Skink Starseer : 145pts
- Spells : Tide of Serpents

Skink Starpriest : 130pts
- Spells : Hand of Glory

5 Saurus Knights : Celestite Spears : 110pts

5 Saurus Knights : Celestite Spears : 110pts

10 Saurus Warriors : Celestite Clubs : 105pts

10 Saurus Warriors : Celestite Clubs : 105pts

5 Saurus Guards : 115pts

Stegadon : Skystreak Bow : 265pts

** Command Entourage (Magnificient : Artefact) **
Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur : 270pts
- Artefact : Blade of Realities
- Mount Trait : Beastmaster

Slann Starmaster : 265pts
- Spells : Stellar Tempest
- Command Trait : Arcane Might

Saurus Astrolith Bearer : 150pts

TOTAL : 1985pts

What do you think about the list ? What could be improved ?

Currently my only regret is that I have a nicely converted and painted Astrolith Bearer that I would like to use, but I don't know how he could fit in here (in term of utility, point, and hero slot). Any Idea ?

 

[Tilorn91]

It is a solid list, you will have fun with it. While not the standard tournament list, things like this is something I enjoy playing often when I am not dabbling in my much neglected Starborne lists. Double Carno is a heavy tax to pay, since it is overall thought that the Oldblood is not really worth his points, but the theme is there, and the conversion needs to see the light of that game table, I understand.

Everything else seems to be solid too. Slann with a reroll and anti-horde, two skink heroes one to enable mortal wounds and other for charging on your mighty monsters.

Now, if you want to squeeze all the potential tricks and the most value out of the models you picked, I'd advise a few things. Keep in mind I am by no means a tournament scale player, just a game club enthusiast. The Slann could take a different spell for his opening turn, because you are unlikely to have a viable horde target in the 1st turn anyway, since the lack of the Astrolith range extending hurts that idea. Maybe a heal, maybe the flight spell to enable one of your monsters even further?

By similar logic, I'd change the Starpriest spell to be the Hand of Glory, since his warscroll spell will not have range most likely, and the Starseer has an amazing warscroll spell he'd want to cast with high priority, either to save stack one of the dinos to counteract high rend, or on an enemy to enable more damage. So it is best to leave a situational spell such as Tide of Snakes on the Seer in my opinion.

Some more nitpicking is the Curse prayer on the Engine. I haven't had a game out of the maybe 10-15 where I tried it and have it work. Heal is simply too reliable, and work in countless more situations. Yeah Curse has amazing potential, but having a good target in the hero phase within 9" is tough, and the 4+ is even tougher. Who knows, it might do wonders for you.

Finally, Koatl Claw is considered to be rather weak, as the +1 to hit is lackluster with not being able to stack it any more with other things. There is some clever play you can do to get more value though. The units that charge normally get the bonus, other units already in combat can still get the Controlled Fury for a plus, while the other gets All out Attack, which is not bad, but not that great either. Dominant Predator is absolute garbage in my opinion, and the artifact requires it to be used by a weapon that doesn't already have effects triggering on a 6, since you can't have more than one trigger per 6 per dice.

Compare that to something as mighty as Thunder Lizards, and yeah, it is clear which one is stronger. Regardless though, give the list a shot, have fun with it and enjoy yourself. Depending on the setting, and the opponent, not all games need to be played with the most meta list. Brings a tear to my eye when I remember 2.0 and the Saurus hordes I used to run with the mighty Oldblood, and maybe this is something that can capture that feeling again.

 

[N3mesis]

Thanks for the very constructive reply !

For the slann what about celestial equilibrium to help the two skink wizards cast their very valuable spells (and also be able to deny at +1 in the next turn of the opponent) ?

Good point as well on the spells for the skink wizards, I'll definitely put hand of glory on the starpriest instead.
I'll update the list accordingly.

For the EotG, the inspiration was from the KC list than won the everwinter GT who ran an EotG with curse.
I guess it would help knights to deliver a lot of mortal wounds if I can align the planets.
Else (probably most of the time) I was planning to use bless for the 6+ ward.
It's not as good as heal in term of survivability, but it's not bad and it allows me to keep curse in addition.
For the moment I'll keep curse and see if I'm able to use it sometimes and how effective it is.
If I don't manage to use it in some games because of the required setup I'll swap it for heal.

I know Koatl Claw is not as good as Thunder Lizard, but its not bad at all and it will better match the theme of my army and the paint job I did on them (kind of desert seraphon like the ones displayed here : How to Paint Everything: Seraphon | Goonhammer).
With the +1 to hit on the charge, controlled fury and wrath of the old ones, most saurus units will be able to get +1 to hit when fighting, and I'll be able to keep all out attack for the EotG which really likes it.
The command trait is trash, but being able to take arcane might on the slann instead is very nice !
And the thing I really like compared to Thunder Lizard, is that the artefact is quite good, and because my slann already has arcane might I don't need to take Itxi Grub.
With TL, I always find myself taking the fusil that I really dislike and Itxi Grub because a reroll on the slann seems nearly mandatory.

 

[N3mesis]

Another list attempt, a bit more fluffy.
What I changed :
- no more bastiladon
- engine of the gods downgraded to a standard stegadon to free one hero slot
- one less squad of 5 knights
- added an astrolith bearer because I really like my miniature and I hope it will really help for casts and dispells
- 2 regiments of 10 warriors, because lore wise they should be the core of a seraphon army. I'm not convinced they will do something else than die trying to hold objectives by their numbers or screening my useful units. Sad time to be a saurus warrior.

------------------------------------------------------------
Constellation : Koatl Claw
Triumph : Inspired
Grand Strategy : Beast Master
------------------------------------------------------------
** Battle Regiment (Unified) **
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur : Celestite Warspear : 215pts
- Artefact : Eviscerating Blade

Skink Starseer : 145pts
- Spells : Tide of Serpents

Skink Starpriest : 130pts
- Spells : Hand of Glory

5 Saurus Knights : Celestite Spears : 110pts

5 Saurus Knights : Celestite Spears : 110pts

10 Saurus Warriors : Celestite Clubs : 105pts

10 Saurus Warriors : Celestite Clubs : 105pts

5 Saurus Guards : 115pts

Stegadon : Skystreak Bow : 265pts

** Command Entourage (Magnificient : Artefact) **
Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur : 270pts
- Artefact : Blade of Realities
- Mount Trait : Beastmaster

Slann Starmaster : 265pts
- Spells : Stellar Tempest
- Command Trait : Arcane Might

Saurus Astrolith Bearer : 150pts

TOTAL : 1985pts

 

[Putzfrau]

Another list attempt, a bit more fluffy.
What I changed :
- no more bastiladon
- engine of the gods downgraded to a standard stegadon to free one hero slot
- one less squad of 5 knights
- added an astrolith bearer because I really like my miniature and I hope it will really help for casts and dispells
- 2 regiments of 10 warriors, because lore wise they should be the core of a seraphon army. I'm not convinced they will do something else than die trying to hold objectives by their numbers or screening my useful units. Sad time to be a saurus warrior.

------------------------------------------------------------
Constellation : Koatl Claw
Triumph : Inspired
Grand Strategy : Beast Master
------------------------------------------------------------
** Battle Regiment (Unified) **
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur : Celestite Warspear : 215pts
- Artefact : Eviscerating Blade

Skink Starseer : 145pts
- Spells : Tide of Serpents

Skink Starpriest : 130pts
- Spells : Hand of Glory

5 Saurus Knights : Celestite Spears : 110pts

5 Saurus Knights : Celestite Spears : 110pts

10 Saurus Warriors : Celestite Clubs : 105pts

10 Saurus Warriors : Celestite Clubs : 105pts

5 Saurus Guards : 115pts

Stegadon : Skystreak Bow : 265pts

** Command Entourage (Magnificient : Artefact) **
Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur : 270pts
- Artefact : Blade of Realities
- Mount Trait : Beastmaster

Slann Starmaster : 265pts
- Spells : Stellar Tempest
- Command Trait : Arcane Might

Saurus Astrolith Bearer : 150pts

TOTAL : 1985pts

IMO, swap steggy for engine and dump the astro for a unit of chamos. Engines are probably the second or third best unit in the book, sooooo good.

Also might give you enough points to run lifeswarm.

 

[N3mesis]

IMO, swap steggy for engine and dump the astro for a unit of chamos. Engines are probably the second or third best unit in the book, sooooo good.

Sadly, I don't own chameleon skinks, and I don't plan to buy some due to their current sculpt...
However, I could go for an eotg + bastiladon by removing the steg, the astrolith and one unit of warriors, which would mean nearly the exact same list as the first one.
Which seems indeed more competitive...

Is the bastiladon good enough at 250pts if not part of a Thunder Lizard army (so 9 shots at 3+/3+ with an all out attack) ?
Otherwise, I should maybe indeed switch to Thunder Lizard (for more competitive games at least).
I would need to also drop the starpriest to take a skink priest for shooting with the 18 shots of the bastiladon at 3+/3+ I imagine ?

 

[Putzfrau]

Sadly, I don't own chameleon skinks, and I don't plan to buy some due to their current sculpt...
However, I could go for an eotg + bastiladon by removing the steg, the astrolith and one unit of warriors, which would mean nearly the exact same list as the first one.
Which seems indeed more competitive...

Is the bastiladon good enough at 250pts if not part of a Thunder Lizard army (so 9 shots at 3+/3+ with an all out attack) ?
Otherwise, I should maybe indeed switch to Thunder Lizard (for more competitive games at least).
I would need to also drop the starpriest to take a skink priest for shooting with the 18 shots of the bastiladon at 3+/3+ I imagine ?

I think the boost the basti gets from Thunder Lizard is pretty hard to ignore but it can slot into other lists just fine. I would just expect to spend a that CP on +1 hit every turn. Personally, I think dropping the starpriest cuts a lot of the damage you could get from the knights out of the list. It's just a much different list, if you wanna move in that direction go for it, it's just gonna be a way different vibe.

IMO if you have any skink models at all, i would ask your opponents if you could proxy some regular skinks for chamos. Definitely hear you on the current sculpts. There's some decent 3D printing options if you have access. If you dont want to use them at all, i'd still dump the astrolith and a warrior unit for... something! Maybe more knights? I'm not sure what you have access too.

 

[N3mesis]

If you dont want to use them at all, i'd still dump the astrolith and a warrior unit for... something! Maybe more knights? I'm not sure what you have access too.

I can have up to 3 units of 5 knights currently. With the miniatures I have currently, I think the best thing to do is to :
- remove the 2 units of warriors
- remove the astrolith
- add a 3rd unit of 5 knights
- add a bastiladon
- change the steg to an EotG

Which leads to the exact same list as the first one xD
So I guess I'll have one more fluffy list with warriors and another one a bit more competitive with the bastiladon.
Depending on which army I will face in my local club, I will be able to adapt and play one or the other.

@Putzfrau:
Another question about the first list was if curse on the EotG was worth compared to heal :

Some more nitpicking is the Curse prayer on the Engine. I haven't had a game out of the maybe 10-15 where I tried it and have it work. Heal is simply too reliable, and work in countless more situations. Yeah Curse has amazing potential, but having a good target in the hero phase within 9" is tough, and the 4+ is even tougher. Who knows, it might do wonders for you.

I guess it would help knights to deliver a lot of mortal wounds if I can align the planets.
Else (probably most of the time) I was planning to use bless for the 6+ ward.
It's not as good as heal in term of survivability, but it's not bad and it allows me to keep curse in addition.

You made 29th at the LVO with a list running an EotG with curse (saw it on Caleb Hastings youtube channel). What is your insight about curse vs heal ?

 

[Putzfrau]

I can have up to 3 units of 5 knights currently. With the miniatures I have currently, I think the best thing to do is to :
- remove the 2 units of warriors
- remove the astrolith
- add a 3rd unit of 5 knights
- add a bastiladon
- change the steg to an EotG

Which leads to the exact same list as the first one xD
So I guess I'll have one more fluffy list with warriors and another one a bit more competitive with the bastiladon.
Depending on which army I will face in my local club, I will be able to adapt and play one or the other.

@Putzfrau:
Another question about the first list was if curse on the EotG was worth compared to heal :





You made 29th at the LVO with a list running an EotG with curse (saw it on Caleb Hastings youtube channel). What is your insight about curse vs heal ?

Sorry I didn't see before you added thr astro cause you really liked your miniature. If that's the case I'd rock him, I just don't think the range extension is super useful on the normal slann and with coalesced treating all terrain in your territory as mystical, usually you've got enough 6+ ward coverage. But playing cool models > min maxing your list . I think having two versions of the list that you can try out is a great idea.

I think Curse is pretty incredible haha. The amount of extra damage it can pour out is pretty insane and with all the mystical in your own territory the extra +1 helps a lot. Just make sure to always have the engine within an inch of a piece of terrain in your territory and it becomes a lot more reliable.

However with all that said, I had the benefit of also running a priest that had heal. Personally, I'd probably run Curse buuuuuut I don't think you're making a bad choice with heal. It's probably something that's be more influenced by your marchups than anything.

Against things like dragons or giants or IJ, curse will give you a huge edge. You can deploy him so the 9 range just hits your screen and it makes crashing into your lines very, very dangerous.

What armies do your usual opponents play?

 

[N3mesis]

Sorry I didn't see before you added thr astro cause you really liked your miniature. If that's the case I'd rock him, I just don't think the range extension is super useful on the normal slann and with coalesced treating all terrain in your territory as mystical, usually you've got enough 6+ ward coverage. But playing cool models > min maxing your list

No issue
As said before, it's a good thing because I will have two list options for some variety !
I edited the first post to show the two versions.

What armies do your usual opponents play?

Well most of the armies are played in my local club. Currently I did not see many dragons, but gargants and some "gods" (Alarielle, Kragnos, Morathi) are quite present.

 

[Putzfrau]

Well most of the armies are played in my local club. Currently I did not see many dragons, but gargants and some "gods" (Alarielle, Kragnos, Morathi) are quite present.

If that's the case, then i'd personally run curse. Maybe swap your slann spell for celestial apotheosis if you don't want to totally miss out on the healing?


edit: i will say it's something i've been thinking a lot about too, the engine being able to heal itself would be super clutch so i really don't think you can go wrong. I'd definitely try it first with curse and see how it goes, see if the Engine healing + celestial apotheosis is enough. I feel like it will be!

 

[N3mesis]

i will say it's something i've been thinking a lot about too, the engine being able to heal itself would be super clutch so i really don't think you can go wrong. I'd definitely try it first with curse and see how it goes, see if the Engine healing + celestial apotheosis is enough. I feel like it will be!

Yes, I'll try curse for a few games and see and try to post some battle reports.
Of course this will probably take several months because I only play once or twice per month...
And I also need to paint some of the models xD

 

[Putzfrau]

Yes, I'll try curse for a few games and see and try to post some battle reports.
Of course this will probably take several months because I only play once or twice per month...
And I also need to paint some of the models xD

Awesome, cant' wait to read them!